Penalty Advice (touch in not registered)

[gouuub]

Hi,

When getting on the train this morning I scanned my bank card and got on, I wasn't really paying attention and head headphones in, when i got off to get on my connecting train I was stopped by a ticket inspector, i handed over my bank card to scan and he informed me it had been declined when scanning in at the start of my journey. There was money on the card so I had no reason to believe it would be declined. He took all my details and told me to wait for a letter. I am worried about what I am going to receive. Any ideas?

 

[furlong]

Where did you start the journey?
Who did the person taking your details work for, or on behalf of (or at which station) and were they in uniform?
What type of bank card? (e.g. Visa debit)

 

[gray1404]

Firstly, which station did you start your journey and tap in? Could you also give the full details of the journey you were making and where you were stopped.

Are you positive that you did tap in at the start of your journey and it worked?

I am assuming that as you were travelling using contactless you were travelling within the TfL area. If so, can you log on and register on their site (if you have not already done so) to see your journey history? You will be able to see if you touched in or not.

I am surprised that for a simple mistake such as forgetting to tap in, it was not dealt with using a Penalty Fare. I was of the understanding though that when an RPI checks a contactless card they are very limited as to what information they are able to see.

 

[matt_world2004]

They cant see if a card has tapped in or not so unless it was hotlisted or didnt work in tfl services then there would be no way of telling it hadnt been tapped im

 

[MikeWh]

To advise further we really do need more details as to what journey you were making.

 

[gouuub]

I got on at chessington south. I got off at Raynes Park to get my connecting train (Southwest Trains). The ticket inspector was in southwest uniform standing with other inspectors and 2 travel police.I had to walk past them to get to my platform which i did without hesitation as i believed i had nothing to worry about, i got my card out (visa debit) and he then informed me it was declined at the start ,I apologised and offered to show him on my phone that there was money in my account, he asked for my details and I said I was in a hurry to get to work, he walked me down to the platform my train was coming to, took my driving licence, all my details, read me my rights but informed me i was not under arrest, told me i needed to wait for a letter and let me on my way.

Another thing is that about a year ago pretty much to the day I was issued an on the spot £20 fine because I was going to miss my train and the cue for the machine was too long so I just ran on. I've only ever boarded a train twice without a ticket and on both occasions I have been stopped.

I don't know if it would help but i have months of bank statements with proof i 99% of the time pay for my journeys?

 

[gray1404]

What you can do now though is check the TfL website and log on to see if you had a valid touch in and if you have been billed for the journey you made.... and report back here what it says.

I am baffled as to how the RPI would have been able to tell if you had a valid touch in or not at that point in your journey as you were using contactless.

 

[gouuub]

It did not register that I scanned in, but I did do it, it must have not worked and I did not realise and just carried on

 

[furlong]

Absolutely - check on the TfL website to confirm whether or not the touch in got recorded. (The card itself doesn't store any indication on it.) Did you still touch out at the end of your journey?

 

[furlong]

It did not register that I scanned in, but I did do it, it must have not worked and I did not realise and just carried on

If it's not showing on the website, then you should call TfL to check that the equipment wasn't at fault. If you nevertheless still touched out leaving an incomplete journey, then they might be able to correct the missing touch in for you based on your normal journey pattern.

 

[gouuub]

after being told my card did not work I did not scan out at the end of my journey

 

[gouuub]

The ticket inspector mentioned that my card maybe getting declined by TFL due to an unfinished journey but I have not had any kind of journey like that in months

 

[furlong]

Well you might want to put them on notice to preserve any CCTV that might corroborate your claim that you touched in with the card in case they decide to prosecute and you decide to contest that or provide mitigation. Against that, they might produce records from the oyster reader showing other successful touch ins and outs immediately before and after the time you were there - and those logs might also show whether perhaps your card registered incompletely if you removed it too quickly. (You have to allow up to half-a-second for contactless cards to register, whereas for Oyster a fifth of a second is sufficient.)

 

[furlong]

It did not register that I scanned in, but I did do it, it must have not worked and I did not realise and just carried on

And you *are* writing this after checking on the TfL website, aren't you? The card itself doesn't show whether you touched in or not - that can only be checked with a connection to the central database.

 

[gouuub]

yes I checked on the TFL website and it did not register

 

[Tetchytyke]

IIRC the handheld equipment will only show if a card has been blacklisted, not whether there has been an individual touch in, but I'm happy to be corrected (I'm looking at MikeWh).

So something doesn't quite add up here...

 

[gouuub]

I used it on Monday and had no problems what so ever

 

[MikeWh]

IIRC the handheld equipment will only show if a card has been blacklisted, not whether there has been an individual touch in, but I'm happy to be corrected (I'm looking at MikeWh).

So something doesn't quite add up here...

Correct. I think that it's likely that the card has been blacklisted for some reason. This really needs to be sorted via the Oyster helpline. The only other possibility is that it has stopped working completely.

gouuub: Have you ever been inspected before when you weren't touched in? This would result in a maximum fare being charged. If this happens three times then the card will be blacklisted. If this hasn't happened then hopefully the helpline can shed some light on what's going on. You could also confirm whether there are any issues with your bank, and whether you've use the contactless mode in any shops this week.

 

[TrainfanBen]

I don't know if it would help but i have months of bank statements with proof i 99% of the time pay for my journeys?

Prior history of paying to my knowledge is only useful if you are proving you paid for specific journey's.

In fact it could count against you, as missing days may raise the question of whether you avoided payment on other days etc.

Its like a prolific thief saying "Look at all the XYZ things I didn't steal"

While others are discussing the intricacies of the payment methods, I think the practical advice would be to wait for the letter to determine how the train operator want to proceed and in the mean time check your bank balances, and journey history is possible to determine if there is proof of payment/authorisation for this specific day/journey.

I am not a qualified lawyer. My advice is only friendly guidance and not legal advice.

 

[Realfish]

Absolutely - check on the TfL website to confirm whether or not the touch in got recorded. (The card itself doesn't store any indication on it.) Did you still touch out at the end of your journey?

This troubles me and I wonder just how robust the Oyster system is, not least given the penalties faced by passengers who fall foul of its failures.

Not wishing to hijack the thread (mods feel free to delete) I visit London now only around a dozen time a year and having tapped out, yet had an incomplete journey at Earlsfield several years ago, I always take the greatest of care using Oyster (cheaper than contactless for me as I have a railcard).

Nevertheless a few months ago, using the wide gates, with luggage, at Earlsfield (again), I had to wait for someone to exit the gate before the red X turned into a green arrow and I could approach and tap in. Although the gate swung open for me, my balance when I interrogated it shewed an incomplete journey - the tap in had not registered.

TFL were fine, a quick phone call and I was reimbursed, but that's not the point. If I'd encountered a RPI en route, It was likely that I would have experienced the same sort of difficulties as the OP.

I mention this because when back in town a few week back, I told friends of this - two or three said they'd experienced the same Oyster / contactless difficulties in the last few months.

I ask again, just how robust is the system?

 

[Idiotic]

On the RID you can see if a card is declined by TFL. So for example you may have an unpaid fare from a previous journey. If TFL was unable to take the money from your account the card will be stopped and unable to be used for travel until the outstanding fare is paid. That normally shows up on the rid as 'Card Declined' and when you touch in on a platform validator it normally says 'Card declined, use another card' or something similar.

The payment isn't normally taken until the next working day, this allows for correct fares to be charged and caps to be worked out etc, and the cards are not authorized on the spot.

 

[matt_world2004]

I had an interesting experiance with this this morning, I was travelling from hayes to paddington . Touched in and it bleeped acceptance, I open my email on the train and my card had been declined for travel due to tfl failing to take cash out the previous day,the declined card email was sent before I touched in. Yet the card definitely gave an accepted bleep at hayes . I sorted theissue out on the train . However the coonfirmation email said the card would not be reactivated until after I have got off the train. The card worked the barriers at paddington normally.

The onky thing I can think happened is that because it cannot tell wheather you are entering or exiting the system st hayes it accepts the card anyway even if it has been declined,

 

[b0b]

The onky thing I can think happened is that because it cannot tell wheather you are entering or exiting the system st hayes it accepts the card anyway even if it has been declined,

or it just takes a couple of days for the latest blacklist to spread around the system?

 

[island]

An updated list of cards to deny is pushed out ever ten minutes or so.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The onky thing I can think happened is that because it cannot tell wheather you are entering or exiting the system st hayes it accepts the card anyway even if it has been declined,

If you are in the system before the card gets blacklisted, then it will let you exit the system. This will be why it worked the barriers at Paddington.

It's perfectly possible that the card was blacklisted after you had started your journey.

 

[matt_world2004]

If you are in the system before the card gets blacklisted, then it will let you exit the system. This will be why it worked the barriers at Paddington.

It's perfectly possible that the card was blacklisted after you had started your journey.

Email was sent at 2:06am and I touched in at hayes at 5:50am. The card was unblocked at 6:59am and the journey appeared on my history several hours later. Hayes has standalone validators so cannot tell if you are entering ir exiting