Penalties on the Railways in General.

[sTEAM Stewart]

Just wondering if anyone's ever had any experience in dealing or witnessing any Railway related Offences which have resulted in a Member of the Public actually being caught and fined? I realise that there are numerous Byelaws, however, I'm thinking along the lines of "Improper use of Emergency Alarm" etc.

Also, does anyone know why on some of the more recent warning signage, they Penalty amount appears to have disappeared? Surely the whole point of displaying the amount you would be fined is the main point to act as a deterrent? Is it a case of (oooh, we don't want to upset potential Offenders), or even that the standard of what is considered Socially acceptable is going down-hill?

The same goes for other signage (such as "No Smoking") -again, the more modern signs and stickers fail to show the Fine amount?

In me own humble opinion, such blatent dis-regard for such Byelaws should always be dealt with by way of a Fine (instead of just a telling-off!)

Thanks in advance peeps!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As time has moved on, the level of Fines proposed when laws are enacted become eroded by inflation (and sometimes challenged due to their inconsistencies). As a consequence, a tariff of fines was established, known as "The Standard Scale" whereby each offence was assigned to one of 5 levels on the tariff, and the Acts which describes the offences now simply refer to the "level" on the Standard Scale instead of specifying the amount of the penalty.
This makes it possible for government to review and increase the tariffs from time to time, without having to change each and every Act of Parliament (and without having to change each warning notice!).

the maximum level of a fine for a particular offence will be fixed by law by reference to a particular level on the “standard scale” . This scale, which applies only to summary offences, is contained in the Criminal Justice Act 1982 s.37 as substituted by the Criminal Justice Act 1991 s.17 (for England and Wales), and the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 s.225 (for Scotland).

The current levels on the standard scale are
Level 1 £200
Level 2 £500
Level 3 £1,000
Level 4 £2,500
Level 5 £5,000

Sometimes, the maximum fine that may be imposed for an offence is stated to be “not exceeding the statutory maximum” . The statutory maximum is £5,000 (Criminal Justice Act 1982, s.74 as amended and as read with the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 s.32(9) (for England and Wales) and £10,000 (for Scotland) (Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 s.225(8) as amended).

The maximum fine that may be imposed on a child (i.e., under the age of 14) is £250; and on a young person (i.e., under the age of 17) is £1,000 (Magistrates Court Act 1980 ss.24 and 36).

 

[First class]

Quite common on Merseyrail:

Esculator misuse (usually Fri/Sat nights, students running up wrong way)- reported for prosecution and fined

Smoking - reported, prosecuted and fined.

Drinking alcohol/carrying alcohol - reported, prosecuted and fined.

An unusual one, but still enforced is "carrying on a trade" which has seen people reported and prosecuted.

These are all byelaw offences...

 

[nedchester]

Quite common on Merseyrail:

Esculator misuse (usually Fri/Sat nights, students running up wrong way)- reported for prosecution and fined

.

Have to say that's a pretty petty offence to start prosecuting people for?

Have Merseyrail stopped prosecuting people for 'feet on seats' - not heard of any recently?

 

[87015]

Have to say that's a pretty petty offence to start prosecuting people for?

Have Merseyrail stopped prosecuting people for 'feet on seats' - not heard of any recently?

Easy money - and straight into the profit box as its not DfT accountable.
No point going after the real problems when you can rack it up easily like that...

 

[the sniper]

Further to DaveNewcastle's post, most offences committed under the railway byelaws are punishable by a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, so up to £1,000.

 

[nedchester]

Easy money - and straight into the profit box as its not DfT accountable.
No point going after the real problems when you can rack it up easily like that...

Oh you cynic........!!!

 

[EM2]

Personally, if I had the powers, I'd be fining people left right and centre, whether it'd be for feet on seats, running the wrong way up an escalator, pushing onto a train before others have got off, cycling/'scooting along' on a platform or a concourse, etc., etc.
David Hepworth (of The Word magazine) wrote that there needs to be a major publicity campaign to make people respect others and to how their actions impact on the those around others. To sum up - 'stop acting like a tit'

 

[bluenoxid]

Personally, if I had the powers, I'd be fining people left right and centre, whether it'd be for feet on seats, running the wrong way up an escalator, pushing onto a train before others have got off, cycling/'scooting along' on a platform or a concourse, etc., etc.
David Hepworth (of The Word magazine) wrote that there needs to be a major publicity campaign to make people respect others and to how their actions impact on the those around others. To sum up - 'stop acting like a tit'

I am pretty sure that if you had those powers, your jaw would be rather loose compared to your skull. As I sometimes remind some of our customers, there is only my patience and three feet of thin air between me and you and when my patience has gone, the air ain't going to help.

 

[First class]

Merseyrail must easily average about 30-40 feet on seat jobs per day!

The press had their moan when it first started. Old news now so not interesting.

Most people usually settle out of court from what I hear...

 

[EM2]

Just noticed that the last line of my post makes *no* sense.
'their actions impact on the those around others' should read 'their actions impact on those around them'

Bluenoxid - are you suggesting I'd be likely to get punched?

 

[bluenoxid]

Yes.

I could tart it up as something like a sudden acceleration of your jaw in a splayed direction as the result of a five knuckled approach

 

[the sniper]

Yes.

I could tart it up as something like a sudden acceleration of your jaw in a splayed direction as the result of a five knuckled approach

It depends in what position EM2 had the powers. If he were a BTP PC, it's unlikely that most people would be foolish enough to assault a police officer instead of settling for a relatively small fine for a minor offence.

 

[sTEAM Stewart]

Great replies everyone (some funny too!) -thanks

 

[route:oxford]

An unusual one, but still enforced is "carrying on a trade" which has seen people reported and prosecuted.

These are all byelaw offences...

Now that is a good one!

So how many people have been prosecuted for using a Blackberry or laptop on the train?

 

[EM2]

Now that is a good one!

So how many people have been prosecuted for using a Blackberry or laptop on the train?

By 'carrying on a trade', it means selling something (or trying to), to passers-by.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

By 'carrying on a trade', it means selling something (or trying to), to passers-by.

In this case, am I right in guessing that the "trade" involved a male "customer" and a female "vendor"?

 

[bluenoxid]

It depends in what position EM2 had the powers. If he were a BTP PC, it's unlikely that most people would be foolish enough to assault a police officer instead of settling for a relatively small fine for a minor offence.

I should take you on a night out in Newcastle You would not believe what people will do when they are intoxicated or on something.

Trade can involve a whole range of things including the selling of goods and properties. The law has many interesting pointers that can be drawn from it but that is what happens, other laws and cases will surpass any attempted prosecution.

 

[12CSVT]

Do any of the railway byelaws (eg trespassing) apply to preserved railways ?
I seem to remember the Mid Hants got into a tiz about lineside photters a year or two ago.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Do any of the railway byelaws (eg trespassing) apply to preserved railways ?
I seem to remember the Mid Hants got into a tiz about lineside photters a year or two ago.

Yes, and the Mid-Hants took action because of a few incidents caused by some very silly, and frankly dangerous, photographers.

 

[scotsman]

Do any of the railway byelaws (eg trespassing) apply to preserved railways ?

My rule book doesn't say - other than the usual 'get 'em off' you'd expect.

It definitely should.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

My rule book doesn't say - other than the usual 'get 'em off' you'd expect.

It definitely should.

Scotsman: It is still a criminal offence, as the preserved railway will be operating under a light railway order. You won't find it on your rule book (other than the name, address, get 'em off, or call the fuzz) as it's legislation.

 

[scotsman]

Scotsman: It is still a criminal offence, as the preserved railway will be operating under a light railway order. You won't find it on your rule book (other than the name, address, get 'em off, or call the fuzz) as it's legislation.

Cheers for that!

My rule book worrying asks for me to ask them to leave, if not - call the RO!

(Methinks I should add the local Polis to my phonebook anyway, the nearest BTP office is a good 30 miles away)

 

[12CSVT]

Scotsman: It is still a criminal offence, as the preserved railway will be operating under a light railway order. You won't find it on your rule book (other than the name, address, get 'em off, or call the fuzz) as it's legislation.

There seems to be a lot of inconsistency as to whether preserved railways are under the juristiction of the British Transport Police. I know the Wensleydale Railway does, yet there are quite a few that don't.

 

[scotsman]

There seems to be a lot of inconsistency as to whether preserved railways are under the juristiction of the British Transport Police. I know the Wensleydale Railway does, yet there are quite a few that don't.

Doesn't matter - if there was ever a need for the Police, the Northern Constabulary would be called. Otherwise, we'd be sitting around for a bit, while the BTP came down.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There seems to be a lot of inconsistency as to whether preserved railways are under the juristiction of the British Transport Police. I know the Wensleydale Railway does, yet there are quite a few that don't.

There is, and I suppose technically, the BTP do have a remit to police heritage railways, but you'll get a quicker response from the civil police.

 

[Stigy]

Do any of the railway byelaws (eg trespassing) apply to preserved railways ?
I seem to remember the Mid Hants got into a tiz about lineside photters a year or two ago.

Not a biggie, but Trespass isn't a byelaw, but is covered under Section 55 of the British Transport Commission Act.

As for reporting people. I do it myself all the time, as it's part of my job role. Bear in mind not all the offences that follow are Byelaw breaches, but some are offences chargable under different acts. Without trying to sound too much like a Jobsworth here, I've reported people for Fare Evasion, Trespass on the Railway, feet on seats (I tend to give at least one warning first though, unless footware if clearly very dirty or the offender fails the attitude test!), false details, a dog unrinating on the concourse at a large London Terminal (not the dog got reported, but the owner, lol), foul and abusive language, smoking on trains and at stations (again, I usually ask the offender to extinguish their ciggie first, unless on a train), taxi drivers not having station permits, contravening road signage and many more. I know that I've have many successful prosecutions, but it's imposible to tell which ones as we don't usually get results sheets through, although I know for a fact that the lady who's dog urinated got an £80 fine from the courts.

I can also issue Penalty Notices for Disorder (PND) which are there to keep minor offences out of court and can be issued for several offences. There are £50 and £80 PNDs depending on the offences (Trespass is a £50 one). I would like to clear up a common misconception many have, in that a PND can be issued for smoking. It can't, and if any TOC or BTP enable their officers and/or Accrideted Staff to issue them for this offence, I'll eat my right arm. I have it on good authority that East Coast state on their website that if caught smoking at any of their stations you could get a £50 fine. Interesting.

I've also issued PNDs for numerous offences, although the main ones are Trespass on the Railway and Section 5 Public Order Act (behaviour likely to cause alarm, harrasment or distress). ANY TOC's railway staff can report offences themselves, although they're usually not trained to, and don't have the facilities to complete the MG11s (forms or computers etc).