Pembroke Dock line timetable decimation

[fishwomp]

This doesn't look good:

Concerns raised by local rail-users after ‘essential service’ removed | tenby-today.co.uk

Concerns have been raised by local train-travellers, after learning that Transport for Wales are removing what rail-users have described as an ‘essential service’ on the line.

www.tenby-today.co.uk

Concerns have been raised by local train-travellers, after learning that Transport for Wales are removing what rail-users have described as an ‘essential service’ on the line.

The train service which pre-Covid, left Carmarthen station around 7 pm for Tenby, originated in Manchester, and connected at Tenby with a service to Pembroke Dock.

“The seemingly permanent removal of this service means that if you miss the 16:51 train to Pembroke Dock at Carmarthen, the next one isn’t until 21:10 - a wait of almost four hours! Is that acceptable?” one local concerned rail-user told the Observer.

In a nutshell - there will be no train between 15:43 and 20:13 from Swansea to Pembroke Dock from Monday's timetable.

This is in addition to the destruction that's come in during Covid of splitting the former Swansea-Pembroke Dock into a Camarthen - Pembroke Dock only, with poor connections now in the down direction - 1h38 journeys up Swansea-Tenby, versus 1h57 to 2h38 in the down direction.

The Pembroke Dock branch in total gets more passenger usage (2019 figures) than the nearby Milford Haven branch, it's been very well used in my experience - and particularly so in summer.

Have TfW forgotten this branch, or worse, have they chosen to do this?

 

[30907]

This doesn't look good:

In a nutshell - there will be no train between 15:43 and 20:13 from Swansea to Pembroke Dock from Monday's timetable.

The 1651 ex Carmarthen is currently the last down train, so the late train is an additional service (and is actually mentioned in the article you linked).

This is in addition to the destruction that's come in during Covid of splitting the former Swansea-Pembroke Dock into a Camarthen - Pembroke Dock only, with poor connections now in the down direction - 1h38 journeys up Swansea-Tenby, versus 1h57 to 2h38 in the down direction.

Odd that the connection at CMN on the first train towards Swansea has been cut, which seems unnecessary. All the other connections are around 2hr.
The branch needs a rethink, I agree - but, as other threads have discussed, the infrastructure doesn't help.

The Pembroke Dock branch in total gets more passenger usage (2019 figures) than the nearby Milford Haven branch, it's been very well used in my experience - and particularly so in summer.

Including the 2005 Tenby-Pembroke and 21xx Pembroke-Carmarthen?

 

[fishwomp]

Including the 2005 Tenby-Pembroke and 21xx Pembroke-Carmarthen?

Actually yes, on the weekends. Last

The 1651 ex Carmarthen is currently the last down train, so the late train is an additional service (and is actually mentioned in the article you linked).

Odd that the connection at CMN on the first train towards Swansea has been cut, which seems unnecessary. All the other connections are around 2hr.
The branch needs a rethink, I agree - but, as other threads have discussed, the infrastructure doesn't help.

Although the infrastructure is no different than it was pre-covid and doing quite well with a train every 2 hours, through to Swansea or beyond.

Including the 2005 Tenby-Pembroke and 21xx Pembroke-Carmarthen?

(re loading of this). Actually, because the local bus services disappear at around 6pm, the train can do really well. I have been on a Thursday or Friday night last train to Pembroke during summer months a couple of years ago - and it was full of young people having had a night out. So busy in fact that there were two private security guards on the train!! Most of those passengers joined at Tenby, and left at either Pembroke or Pemb Dock. I don't know how loadings are the rest of the week, or indeed year, for that last train.

 

[allaction]

I’m the concerned traveller quoted in the article.

All suggestions on what can be done from any of you, or any inside knowledge will be gratefully received, please.

I have a sneaking suspicion that TfW have done this to save a unit. But there’s no excuse at all for it. We’re passengers, too.

Further, the huge improvements that will be swept in when the Metro arrives amounts to just one additional Sunday return service in a couple of years time on the Pembroke Dock line.
As I’m quoted in the article, we really are at the end of the line.

 

[berneyarms]

What’s your source that the missing services are a permanent change? Or is this just supposition?

TfW are still short of units and drivers and there are plenty of other services yet to return on other lines. We are far from having the full service restored yet.

They are restoring one return working on the line in this timetable but I’d expect more services across the network to be restored from next May as more new drivers pass out and hopefully the new units start to come into service.

 

[Anonymous10]

What’s your source that the missing services are a permanent change? Or is this just supposition?

TfW are still short of units and drivers and there are plenty of other services yet to return on other lines. We are far from having the full service restored yet.

They are restoring one return working on the line in this timetable but I’d expect more services across the network to be restored from next May as more new drivers pass out and hopefully the new units start to come into service.

worth remembering this is a peak rush hour train and i use this service weekly its often decently busy even without tourists so id hate to see the fall in usage without a train at rush hour

 

[Western 52]

worth remembering this is a peak rush hour train and i use this service weekly its often decently busy even without tourists so id hate to see the fall in usage without a train at rush hour

Yes indeed. I use it quite often too and it's busy. Apart from the loss of this train, the awful connections at Carmarthen are a major reason not to use the service at the moment. Road improvements in Pembs in recent years mean it's a lot quicker by car even when the service is through to Swansea.

 

[Anonymous10]

Yes indeed. I use it quite often too and it's busy. Apart from the loss of this train, the awful connections at Carmarthen are a major reason not to use the service at the moment. Road improvements in Pembs in recent years mean it's a lot quicker by car even when the service is through to Swansea.

i pray things improve for my first long distance trip next year by train but thats off topic the point is is why should the busiest line in the county have to contend with a 4 hour gap

 

[fishwomp]

i pray things improve for my first long distance trip next year by train but thats off topic the point is is why should the busiest line in the county have to contend with a 4 hour gap

It's really destroying the ability to travel, or at least in a reasonable time, from a longer distance to the area.

Any help forthcoming from the politicians? As TfW / rail is a devolved matter, and the local MP is a Conservative (I think) - he would probably enjoy bashing the Labour Senedd.

Are they too busy with Valley Lines and reopenings to notice the lines they are closing by driving away the passengers. It is now impossible to commute - and (pre-omicron) - these timetables were supposed to be getting us back towards normality where people do work in offices (at least some days).

 

[30907]

I’m the concerned traveller quoted in the article.

All suggestions on what can be done from any of you, or any inside knowledge will be gratefully received, please.

I have a sneaking suspicion that TfW have done this to save a unit. But there’s no excuse at all for it. We’re passengers, too.

I can't see that it saves a unit, but there are insiders on here who may know. It might save a crew, or fit better with maintenance schedules.
There was a similar case on the Bentham Line where diagramming issues made it simplest not to reinstate the most convenient mid-morning train from Leeds, to the annoyance of two forum members

Your best approach might be (in company with other regulars) to come up with a better timetable for the set that works the 1651 and 2110 ex CMN.
Eg 1845 PMD-Whitland, 1955 WTL-Tenby, 2040 TEN-WTL, 2125 WTL-PMD looks as though it would work, and barely increases the unit mileage, but you may be able to come up with better.

worth remembering this is a peak rush hour train and i use this service weekly its often decently busy even without tourists so id hate to see the fall in usage without a train at rush hour

1905 from Carmarthen to Pembroke is rush hour? (I note Western 52 did this journey regularly pre Covid, apologies if I've underestimated the loading.)

 

[Anonymous10]

I can't see that it saves a unit, but there are insiders on here who may know. It might save a crew, or fit better with maintenance schedules.
There was a similar case on the Bentham Line where diagramming issues made it simplest not to reinstate the most convenient mid-morning train from Leeds, to the annoyance of two forum members

Your best approach might be (in company with other regulars) to come up with a better timetable for the set that works the 1651 and 2110 ex CMN.
Eg 1845 PMD-Whitland, 1955 WTL-Tenby, 2040 TEN-WTL, 2125 WTL-PMD looks as though it would work, and barely increases the unit mileage, but you may be able to come up with better.


1905 from Carmarthen to Pembroke is rush hour? (I note Western 52 did this journey regularly pre Covid, apologies if I've underestimated the loading.)

i made a mistake on timing still the 18:45 from Tenby is regularly decently busy i use that train minimum of once weekly

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What do the crew do in their one hour layover at Pembroke Dock? Is it an official break or just unproductive working time?

I know they go and sit in the station building, rather than having to wait time on the train.

This is one of those lines where the (current) infrastructure doesn't suit itself to a regular interval timetable and an 'odd' frequency, rather than every two hours, would be better - to make efficient use of crews, units and infrastructure available.

I realise that any changes would have knock-on effects to the Carmarthen to Swansea service, and the connections that provides at Swansea.

In the meantime, can the council be persuaded to contract (or the operator provide on a commercial basis) a bus to cover the trip, in whole or part eg First providing later journeys on the Tenby to Pembroke service.

 

[fishwomp]

What do the crew do in their one hour layover at Pembroke Dock? Is it an official break or just unproductive working time?

I know they go and sit in the station building, rather than having to wait time on the train.

This is one of those lines where the (current) infrastructure doesn't suit itself to a regular interval timetable and an 'odd' frequency, rather than every two hours, would be better - to make efficient use of crews, units and infrastructure available.

I realise that any changes would have knock-on effects to the Carmarthen to Swansea service, and the connections that provides at Swansea.

The connection was broken at Swansea in the year prior to COVID - when the GW frequencies went up, the Swansea timings were such that the London train left just before the Tenby came in. It pretty much added an hour to any London bound trip.
Since the doubling of Gowerton route, the old arguments on knock-on impact of changes is very much diminished.. In fact, if the justification for the 1-hour layover was to prevent delays being imported into the system at Gowerton, then this is very much time to change.

In the meantime, can the council be persuaded to contract (or the operator provide on a commercial basis) a bus to cover the trip, in whole or part eg First providing later journeys on the Tenby to Pembroke service.

It is a bit bonkers to wait an hour in PMD. For the same crew as 2019, you could have a service every 90 mins instead of every 2 hours that it was.. but now the problem is that there are fewer services _and_ they wait in Pembroke Dock for an hour to turn round. Still as inefficient, just less useful.

As it was, the waiting-an-hour didn't help reliability much: the Up service would often have to wait for the Down service at Tenby.. thus wasting all that recovery by re-importing the delay from the Down service, and sending the delay back into the system, unlike had the passing been at Whitland - straight onto the double track.. Also at Tenby they add 4 minutes to sort out the token, which of course the Up can't release until the Down arrives..

If they passed at Whitland they could pick up Token for the full-length of the route.. and making end-to-end about 53-55 minutes. Closing or changing the rules at the stop-and-blow crossings (3 of..) - they would be down to 51 minutes, which ought to be rock-solid if passing at Whitland..

Edit: We had a thread on improving the service 9 months back - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/speculation-on-better-services-for-pembrokeshire.213955/ - but today we're trying to get it back to what it was, or perhaps more efficiently implementing what it should offer..

 

[30907]

As it was, the waiting-an-hour didn't help reliability much: the Up service would often have to wait for the Down service at Tenby.. thus wasting all that recovery by re-importing the delay from the Down service, and sending the delay back into the system, unlike had the passing been at Whitland - straight onto the double track..

That is an argument for having slack connections somewhere in the system, whether at Carmarthen or Swansea. It's how the Cambrian Coast seems to work, though again that is an accident of (70s) history!
I agree that a modest upgrade to allow passing at Whitland would be desirable, but you'd want a decent layover at Pembroke Dock to allow for down delays....

 

[berneyarms]

Regarding the thread title - there is one one return working not operating on the line here - hardly "decimation", and I would fully expect that service to return to service as driver and train numbers are restored to pre-pandemic levels. Again there simply aren't the requisite numbers of drivers and trains to do everything right now.

However, having said that it should not be beyond the powers of reason to ensure that there are direct connections at Carmarthen into/out of branch services with no waits of an hour there.

Regarding a quick turnaround at Pembroke Dock, if the wait at Tenby was only one minute, then Whitland to Pembroke Dock would take 58 minutes (using the working timetable). and that is just far too tight to run the branch as "one engine in steam" from Whitland.

You could however operate the two hourly Pembroke Dock service and a two hourly service between Carmarthen and Tenby (but with the latter running non-stop to/from Whitland and a five minute turnaround at Tenby).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Regarding the thread title - there is one one return working not operating on the line here - hardly "decimation".

A reduction of just one working in ten would indeed be "decimation".

Can see eight return workings from Carmarthen -> Pembroke on weekdays next week, departing Carmarthen at 0530, 0641, 0848 (through service from Cardiff / Swansea), 1102, 1251, 1451, 1651 and 2110 , so roughly every two hours, but with the awkward four hour plus gap after the 1651 departure.

What was the service provision like immediately previously to the timetable change?

 

[Taunton]

It's really destroying the ability to travel, or at least in a reasonable time, from a longer distance to the area.

Any help forthcoming from the politicians? As TfW / rail is a devolved matter, and the local MP is a Conservative (I think)

Probably why the politicians from a different party can't be blowed to provide anything other than the minimum they can get away with legally.

 

[allaction]

Thanks for all your thoughts. As I mentioned in my exclusive interview in the Tenby Observer, there are a number of factors at play here.

Firstly, the only break in services all day for more than two hours; secondly, the fact that it means that there is no longer a connection from Cardiff at 1700 and Swansea at 1800, at the end of the business and leisure day. The train was always very popular.

I note that TfW are providing a connection at Carmarthen for the Milford line at around 1900, but not for Tenby and the Dock. That’s preposterous, in my view.

Prior to Covid, the (now dropped) service ran directly to Tenby from Manchester Piccadilly, before returning immediately to Cardiff Central for stabling. A DMU, which had just arrived at Tenby from the Dock, then returned to Pembroke Dock from Tenby, and I wonder if it is this unit that TfW are saving.

Whatever, it is a poor move by TfW who have slid it in without any notice or consultation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==

Probably why the politicians from a different party can't be blowed to provide anything other than the minimum they can get away with legally.

Yes, not only is he a Conservative, but he is Her Majesty’s Secretary of State for Wales!

 

[Taunton]

A reduction of just one working in ten would indeed be "decimation".

Can see eight return workings from Carmarthen -> Pembroke on weekdays next week, departing Carmarthen at 0530, 0641, 0848 (through service from Cardiff / Swansea), 1102, 1251, 1451, 1651 and 2110 , so roughly every two hours, but with the awkward four hour plus gap after the 1651 departure.

What was the service provision like immediately previously to the timetable change?

This is a typical railway "service" nowadays, with eight trains a day, which sounds fine, but two of the eight depart before most people have even got up in the morning. Three trains between 11am and 3pm, but thereafter after 3pm only two more trains through to the end of service, which is where one would have thought the bulk of demand was.

Likewise the long-established East Midlands "service" from Leeds to St Pancras, long shown boldly on their maps, although just a couple of trains a day, the LAST of which left at 0630 in the morning. Services run for the convenience of the railway without thought for the demand times of the passengers. I've described this one here before only to be rebutted with comments that, of course, it's for convenience of stock movements from the depot, as if that's the reason why the railway exists. I suspect a comparable reason at Pembroke as well.

 

[Anonymous10]

Thanks for all your thoughts. As I mentioned in my exclusive interview in the Tenby Observer, there are a number of factors at play here.

Firstly, the only break in services all day for more than two hours; secondly, the fact that it means that there is no longer a connection from Cardiff at 1700 and Swansea at 1800, at the end of the business and leisure day. The train was always very popular.

I note that TfW are providing a connection at Carmarthen for the Milford line at around 1900, but not for Tenby and the Dock. That’s preposterous, in my view.

Prior to Covid, the (now dropped) service ran directly to Tenby from Manchester Piccadilly, before returning immediately to Cardiff Central for stabling. A DMU, which had just arrived at Tenby from the Dock, then returned to Pembroke Dock from Tenby, and I wonder if it is this unit that TfW are saving.

Whatever, it is a poor move by TfW who have slid it in without any notice or consultation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==


Yes, not only is he a Conservative, but he is Her Majesty’s Secretary of State for Wales!

much as i dislike him ill likely be joining you in writing in about this

 

[berneyarms]

A reduction of just one working in ten would indeed be "decimation".

Can see eight return workings from Carmarthen -> Pembroke on weekdays next week, departing Carmarthen at 0530, 0641, 0848 (through service from Cardiff / Swansea), 1102, 1251, 1451, 1651 and 2110 , so roughly every two hours, but with the awkward four hour plus gap after the 1651 departure.

What was the service provision like immediately previously to the timetable change?

Well literally, but not realistically.

Prior to this weekend, all of those ran bar the 21:10 service.

It has been restored.

There remains one pre-Covid return working to restore.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==

Thanks for all your thoughts. As I mentioned in my exclusive interview in the Tenby Observer, there are a number of factors at play here.

Firstly, the only break in services all day for more than two hours; secondly, the fact that it means that there is no longer a connection from Cardiff at 1700 and Swansea at 1800, at the end of the business and leisure day. The train was always very popular.

I note that TfW are providing a connection at Carmarthen for the Milford line at around 1900, but not for Tenby and the Dock. That’s preposterous, in my view.

Prior to Covid, the (now dropped) service ran directly to Tenby from Manchester Piccadilly, before returning immediately to Cardiff Central for stabling. A DMU, which had just arrived at Tenby from the Dock, then returned to Pembroke Dock from Tenby, and I wonder if it is this unit that TfW are saving.

Whatever, it is a poor move by TfW who have slid it in without any notice or consultation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==


Yes, not only is he a Conservative, but he is Her Majesty’s Secretary of State for Wales!

Hang on. Don't get carried away here, "my exclusive interview in the Tenby Observer" is really pushing things a bit. You're a passenger, exactly like everyone else.

I do entirely agree with you re the poor connections at Camarthen, but I do have to ask again, what evidence have you got that the lack of one service from the pre-Covid timetable is a permanent cancellation?

Plenty of other lines have yet to have their pre-covid service levels restored yet, due to primarily the ongoing shortage of drivers, but also the ongoing shortage of units.

To be quite honest I fully expect that it will be restored in 2022 as driver and unit resources permit.

 

[Gathursty]

How much money would you need to spend to allow a train to shuttle between Tenby and Pembroke independent of a train from points East to Tenby?

That is to say whatever is happening on one side of Tenby has no detriment on the other side.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Until last week, there was a two-hourly service until 1650 from Carmarthen, then nothing. No 1905 service and no 2110 service.
Next week there is the same two-hourly service until 1650, then the restored last departure at 2110.

If a choice had to be made should the 1905 or 2110 service be the one restored now, with the other to follow?

Have TfW given any indication why they chose to restore the 2110 over the 1905?

Ideally both would have been re-instated this timetable change but, as has been mentioned, West Wales is not alone in this situation. On my local line there has been several months of 60% provision (3 out of 5 trains), from tomorrow it increases to 80% (4 out of 5 trains). Still a large gap if the missing train happens to be the time you want to travel.

One question, network wide, is whether / why we have to wait until May for the next batch of service re-instatements.

Looking at Real Time Trains: The 1905 arrival at Carmarthen, which pre-Covid ran to Tenby and back, to then depart Carmarthen at 2100, now sits in platform 2 at Carmarthen from 1905 to 2100. Whether staff are available to run that trip to Tenby and back is a different matter, but a unit certainly gives a very good impression of being available.

 

[allaction]

Well literally, but not realistically.

Prior to this weekend, all of those ran bar the 21:10 service.

It has been restored.

There remains one pre-Covid return working to restore.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==


Hang on. Don't get carried away here, "my exclusive interview in the Tenby Observer" is really pushing things a bit. You're a passenger, exactly like everyone else.

I do entirely agree with you re the poor connections at Camarthen, but I do have to ask again, what evidence have you got that the lack of one service from the pre-Covid timetable is a permanent cancellation?

Plenty of other lines have yet to have their pre-covid service levels restored yet, due to primarily the ongoing shortage of drivers, but also the ongoing shortage of units.

To be quite honest I fully expect that it will be restored in 2022 as driver and unit resources permit.

Whether the cut is permanent or not, I am campaigning against the fact that it has taken place at all. Whether it is for a month, or until next May, or is permanent, the fact is that it was a popular service that has not been restored with no explanation at all.

I will be giving exclusive interviews with other local news outlets in the coming week, so keep an eye open for them as well! (I was being ironic with my original remark, by the way…)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Can see eight return workings from Carmarthen -> Pembroke on weekdays next week, departing Carmarthen at 0530, 0641, 0848 (through service from Cardiff / Swansea), 1102, 1251, 1451, 1651 and 2110 , so roughly every two hours, but with the awkward four hour plus gap after the 1651 departure.

What was the service provision like immediately previously to the timetable change?

Until last week, there was a two-hourly service until 1650 from Carmarthen, then nothing. No 1905 service and no 2110 service.

Next week there is the same two-hourly service until 1650, then the restored last departure at 2110.

So, there's actually one additional working to/from Pembroke Dock from Carmarthen effective tomorrow.

The awkward gap in the early evening timetable isn't exactly great, but how exactly is this a "decimation" as per the OP"s thread title, when compared with the service provision only last week? Seems to me to be a first step back in the right direction.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Whether the cut is permanent or not, I am campaigning against the fact that it has taken place at all. Whether it is for a month, or until next May, or is permanent, the fact is that it was a popular service that has not been restored with no explanation at all.

I will be giving exclusive interviews with other local news outlets in the coming week, so keep an eye open for them as well! (I was being ironic with my original remark, by the way…)

Your local news outlets will take anything you send them, the gripier the better. Include a photograph with arms folded and an 'I want compo' face, for full impact. Having done so, I suggest you don't read any below-the-line comments submitted on-line by readers!

A near total lack of decent, informative, explanatory, communication regarding the lack of full service restoration is not unique to West Wales. At best it will be spinned as 'look how fantastic we are restoring your train' with no mention at all of those still cancelled.

 

[berneyarms]

So, there's actually one additional working to/from Pembroke Dock from Carmarthen effective tomorrow.

The awkward gap in the early evening timetable isn't exactly great, but how exactly is this a "decimation" as per the OP"s thread title, when compared with the service provision only last week? Seems to me to be a first step back in the right direction.

Yes - the new timetable is an improvement on the previous one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==

Whether the cut is permanent or not, I am campaigning against the fact that it has taken place at all. Whether it is for a month, or until next May, or is permanent, the fact is that it was a popular service that has not been restored with no explanation at all.

I will be giving exclusive interviews with other local news outlets in the coming week, so keep an eye open for them as well! (I was being ironic with my original remark, by the way…)

So, basically, you have no evidence that it is a permanaent cut.

I want to see services restored as much as you do, but the reality is that TfW have both a driver and unit shortage right now across the network.

That is well documented on these boards, so I do not agree that there has been "no explanation at all".

A service has been restored from tomorrow, yet the narrative here is that the service is "decimated". That's nonsense.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Might be interesting to undertake an analysis (old timetable vs new timetable) of connections onto the Pembroke branch (at Carmarthen presumably) with services from the Swansea direction, given that there still seems to be only the one through (Swansea->Pembroke) weekday morning working.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Might be interesting to undertake an analysis (old timetable vs new timetable) of connections onto the Pembroke branch (at Carmarthen presumably) with services from the Swansea direction, given that there still seems to be only the one through (Swansea->Pembroke) weekday morning working.

Part of the problem is that Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock workings used to be, on the two-hourly frequency basis, Swansea to Pembroke Dock through workings. So the traveller has lost their through journey and the Swansea to Carmarthen legs are presently not operating.

Winter 2019 time from Pembroke Dock: 0659 (through to Swansea 0901) then through journeys every two hours. Winter 2021 time from Pembroke Dock: 0659 (change at Carmarthen and arrive Swansea 0950). The link to Swansea, previously the through train, departs 5 minutes before the arrival from Pembroke Dock. Helpful!

In the return direction you could previously leave Swansea at 1600 (through to Pembroke Dock), 1814 (though to Tenby) and 2011 (change at Carmarthen). From tomorrow it's 1543 (change at Carmarthen) and 2013 (change at Carmarthen).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, whilst not really a "decimation", on the hand, it's still not anywhere near as useful a service as perhaps it ought to be, certainly if travelling to/from the Pembroke branch from further afield than Carmarthen.