Peaks D1-10 on passenger

[The Crab]

Does anyone know when the original Peaks ceased to be routinely rostered to passenger trains. Amazingly my wife tells me she saw D4 on the Settle & Carlisle (God only knows when!) on an express but I only saw them on mineral trains in the Derby/Stoke areas. What routes did they cover for pass?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Does anyone know when the original Peaks ceased to be routinely rostered to passenger trains. Amazingly my wife tells me she saw D4 on the Settle & Carlisle (God only knows when!) on an express but I only saw them on mineral trains in the Derby/Stoke areas. What routes did they cover for pass?

When introduced they certainly worked passenger services out of St Pancras to the likes of Manchester Central and other Midland Route destinations, I think they were also used on WCML services initially, then as the more powerful class 45/46's were introduced in greater numbers through the mid sixties it was around that time that the 44's found themselves relegated to freight duties, sorry I can't be more specific with the actual dates when this took place, interesting question btw.

Edit: The above was off the top of my head, I have just read that D1-10's passenger career ended as early as 1962 with the reason being as stated above, it was at that time that transfer to the Nottingham Division took place for their use as heavy freight loco's, the train heating boilers were removed shortly after transfer.

I believe there were some farewell specials operated during the late seventies and D4(by then 44004) participated in some of these, although I don't think they traversed the S&C, indeed I witnessed one myself passing Reddish South though can't remember the exact year.

 

[70014IronDuke]

When introduced they certainly worked passenger services out of St Pancras to the likes of Manchester Central and other Midland Route destinations, I think they were also used on WCML services initially, then as the more powerful class 45/46's were introduced in greater numbers through the mid sixties it was around that time that the 44's found themselves relegated to freight duties, sorry I can't be more specific with the actual dates when this took place, interesting question btw........

They were used on the Midland, on passenger trains, but ITYWF it was a matter of weeks, not months - in 1959 and early 1960.

There is a photo of one on the front of a Trains Illustrated (or perhaps a very early Modern Railways) on an up Manchester Central - St Pancras service in, I think, June 1962 (memory could be wrong on the date) - but they were long gone from such trains.

I assume this was more for testing/running in purposes, before they were sent to the WCML, scattered over various depots from Camden-Crewe-Edge Hill and I think Longsight. I saw them there in 1961 and probably 1962.

I assume the operating dept were desperate for Type 4 diesels to reduce the amount of work and maintenance needs of Cl 8 pacifics. I don't know if they had any specific turns - from memory, they just seemed to be used in a pool, with Cl 40s - which were still being delivered until, hmmmm, not sure exactly, but probably still until towards the end of 1962.

I think they Cl 44s were all on the WCML by around Feb or March 1960. They were certainly all gone from the Midland by the summer of 1960, well before the very first Cl 45, D11, was delivered in August or Sept that year.

When they were returned to the Midland, I believe they were restricted to goods traffic, primarily mineral trains. I never saw or heard of them ever being used on regular passenger trains.

 

[fergusjbend]

I used to go to Manchester Central to see Peaks as late as 1964 or 1965. They were used to haul passenger services to LSP.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I used to go to Manchester Central to see Peaks as late as 1964 or 1965. They were used to haul passenger services to LSP.

You would have seen "Peaks" until the very last day of Manchester Central's life in 1967 (?), sure. But these would have been Cl 45s (D11 - D137), not Cl 44s (D1-D10), which is what the OP was enquiring about.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is worth adding that they had an excellent reliability record when allocated to Toton - IIRC it was typically 40-45,000 miles per casualty, which was 3-4 times better than the 45s. Of course, many of the Cl 45 casualties were related to the steam heat boiler, which the 44s no longer had installed.

 

[Signalmans Eye]

D7 Up Ulster exp 20.11.60
D7 1S25 Euston perth 13.3.61
D10 1M15 17.00 Inverness Euston 28.8.61
D5 also D4 28.8.61
D2 Perth Euston 28.8.61
Wcml diversions thro eccles

 

[D6975]

For info on Peak workings and allocations, take a look at the history section of the excellent DerbySulzers website. It used to be mostly 24/25 info, but now has lots of Peak info too.

ps according to the site, the Derby allocated D1-10ers moved to WCML sheds during March and April 1960.

 

[Ash Bridge]

It is interesting to read that during 1962 D2 had its engine uprated to 2500bhp. after being fitted with a supercharger and was authorised for speeds of 100mph plus for test running on the WCML, what could have been the purpose of the tests?

 

[Taunton]

It is worth adding that they had an excellent reliability record when allocated to Toton - IIRC it was typically 40-45,000 miles per casualty, which was 3-4 times better than the 45s. Of course, many of the Cl 45 casualties were related to the steam heat boiler, which the 44s no longer had installed.

A poor record, especially as the steam heat boilers were not even used for 6 months of the year. You have to wonder how BR never got to grips with their boilers for years - in the USA, where into the 1970s steam supply was used 12 months of the year because it powered the air conditioning in the passenger vehicles as well, they never had such continuing problems.

 

[70014IronDuke]

A poor record, especially as the steam heat boilers were not even used for 6 months of the year. You have to wonder how BR never got to grips with their boilers for years - in the USA, where into the 1970s steam supply was used 12 months of the year because it powered the air conditioning in the passenger vehicles as well, they never had such continuing problems.

I presume you mean "poor record" referring in general to the steam heat boilers?
As I wrote, the Cl 44s - when concentrated at Toton after their spell on the WCML - had an excellent record. At least as I remember looking at the failure rates in the early 70s - there may have been odd weeks when the number of casualties went up and ruined the average.

I take your point on the steam heat boilers, however. Indeed, it is a puzzle how they never solved this issue. Deserves a thread all on its own, really.
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When introduced they certainly worked passenger services out of St Pancras to the likes of Manchester Central and other Midland Route destinations,
... ..

Your post has since got me thinking. Did they 'do' destinations other than Man Central - St Pancras, I wonder ? (I'm talking about their first spell on the Midland, of course.)

I can't remember seeing any photos of them even at Nottingham or Sheffield, let alone the Birmingham route. I have a suspicion they were diagrammed for services otherwise meant to be 2 x Cl 28, but often fell back to Scots or Brits.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is interesting to read that during 1962 D2 had its engine uprated to 2500bhp. after being fitted with a supercharger and was authorised for speeds of 100mph plus for test running on the WCML, what could have been the purpose of the tests?

As I remember it, D2 was the test loco for the uprated Cl 45s. Both Cl 44 and Cl 45s had turbochargers (not quite the same as superchargers) - but the Cl 45s had an 'intercooler' fitted between the turbocharger and the engine. (As had the Cl 46s and 47s.)

This cooled the pressurised air being fed into the cylinders, thus allowing a greater mass of air in at any given time. Greater mass equals more oxygen, you can burn more fuel and get more power per piston stroke.

This is how they boosted D2 (and the Cl 44 design) from 2,300 hp to the 2,500 hp of the Cl 45s.

Whether it was all worth it in the long run (in terms of extra stresses on the pistons, cylinder heads, crankshaft, bearings etc, and hence more crackings and failures) - is a moot point.

I had never heard of D2 simultaneously being passed for 100 mph before. Perhaps it was. Personally I doubt that - but it may have been given temporary allowances on certain test runs.

Cl 45s could certainly make it to 100 mph, I agree - but passing D2 out for general 100 mph running in 61-62? I doubt there were many places it could possibly have achieved it - and in addition, loads on the WCML in those days tended to be very heavy. With 14 coaches or so, it would have struggled to make 90 mph.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes, the class 44's do seem to have been rather camera shy during their early days on passenger duties, some of the few places I've only ever seen them photographed at are, Manchester Central, Cheadle Heath, Millers or Monsal Dale, St Pancras and somewhere on the west coast route.

Regarding the WCML test running, I was intrigued by this as by 1962 there would have been 100mph electric locomotives available for test train workings, so presumably the testing (if it actually took place) was relating to the Peaks themselves?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes, the class 44's do seem to have been rather camera shy during their early days on passenger duties, some of the few places I've only ever seen them photographed at are, Manchester Central, Cheadle Heath, Millers or Monsal Dale, St Pancras and somewhere on the west coast route.

Yes, it's also true there are nor many piccies of them on the WCML (or logs, as I have noticed.) But my original point was there are few pics of them in their very early days on the Midland except on Manchester - Derby - London trains. So I question whether they were ever diagrammed for anything else.

Regarding the WCML test running, I was intrigued by this as by 1962 there would have been 100mph electric locomotives available for test train workings, so presumably the testing (if it actually took place) was relating to the Peaks themselves?

Yes, this is what I meant. It could, i suppose, have been to test whether the traction motors were up to it, possibly in long-term preparation for the Cl 47s. But doing this on the WCML in 1962? Not impossible - I assume the Preston - Lancaster section could have facilitated it perhaps, but not easy either. My impression is (I was only a kid at the time) the route was just not up to such running. Most trains lumbered along in the 65-75 mph range, with occasional maxima of 80-85 mph, and were timed for such.

If they'd wanted to test D2 at 100mph, the ECML would have been far ore suited to it.

 

[Taunton]

This page has a lot of Class 44 detail and covers several questions from above, including D2's high speed runs on the WCML in 1962 (presumably the LMR were too self-centred to borrow a Deltic for 100 mph trials south of Crewe).

http://www.derbysulzers.com/class44.html

 

[The Crab]

Thanks to all for some very interesting information.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thanks to all for some very interesting information.

In case it is not clear, the answer to your original question, assuming the Wikipedia page is correct - is the last time they were regularly diagrammed for passenger would have been March 1962, before they left the WCML. When they came to the Midland, I'm fairly sure they would not have been allocated to Cl 1 or Cl1 passenger duties, except in emergency.

(I confess that I thought they were still on the WCML in the summer of 1962, but I have long lost my spotting books from that year. )
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This page has a lot of Class 44 detail and covers several questions from above, including D2's high speed runs on the WCML in 1962 (presumably the LMR were too self-centred to borrow a Deltic for 100 mph trials south of Crewe).

http://www.derbysulzers.com/class44.html

These pages are indeed interesting. They are written very authoritatively, and it would appear they are in the main correct, but I do have some queries, and indeed, they raise some questions, most especially the D2 runs.

1) To answer your point about borrowing a Deltics - I would say the ER was probably too unlikely to have let one of their valuable machines go wandering off for 3-4-5 days !

2) The Wikipedia general page on the Cl 44s writes:

1961
"Further workings north of the border were converted to diesels, mostly the named Anglo-Scottish expresses, occasionally the Peaks would cover these turns, in particular D4. Others of the Class continued to see service on the Manchester - St Pancras workings, but with the steady introduction of the more powerful D11 series Peaks, would see diminishing use of the first ten."
This is not at all in line with what I witnessed. I was a regular spotter at the southern end of the MML at that time, and I never once saw, or heard of, a Cl44 appearing, neither on passenger or freight. I know I would have remembered, because I was always on the look out for a reappearance of these locos!

Of course, I can't swear it never happened, but what I suspect may have occurred is locos based at Longsight (or other WCML sheds), may have worked passenger turns to or from Manchester to Derby (for attention)

3) What is more intriguing is the entries on D2, a fascinating account of its early years and these high speed runs.

One thing is fairly clear, at least from inference, that D2 was not passed for general running at 100 mph - it was only for the test runs (as I originally surmised).

So, D2 is fitted with a B series engine (with intercooler - this never seems to be mentioned in the Wiki text) from new, so it is 2,500 hp - but, it continues:

"The locomotive was derated to 2,300hp during July 1961 by Sulzer staff at Camden depot. Presumably at its next Works visit the 'B' series engine was exchanged for an 'A' series."

THEN - the first tests begin in August - just after the loco has been downrated!

The page continues:

"In August 1962 test trains were run on the WCML between Liverpool & Euston to evaluate the performance of the overhead line equipment and to confirm that the infrastructure of the route (track condition, signals etc) would meet the rquirements of the upcoming high speed services."

This is peculiar. Why use the downrated D2 for these tests when there were 2,500 hp locos available? Indeed, they coming off Crewe works new on a weekly basis?

And, I'm not sure where the electrification had got to at the time, but it was surely not beyond Stafford or so (it didn't reach Nuneaton until, August or Sept 1964) and the signalling at the southern end of he line was surely NOT up to 100 mph standards.

But even more peculiarly, D2 is once again chosen for high speed tests in 1964.

"D2 returned to the WCML during June 1964 when the locomotive operated out of Camden depot on further high speed test trains between Euston & Liverpool. On June 24th D2 and a seven coach test train made a round trip Euston - Liverpool with considerable running at 100mph plus. The down trip was made in 2hrs 54min, the up trip in 2hrs 41min."

By this time, Cl 47s, which were passed for 95 mph, were around. So why use D2? There was certainly no need by then to test the loco at that speed, there was no way they were going to pass the Cl 45 for anything more than 90 mph by then, and it risked something going wrong. It seems very strange.

If anyone has the Modern Railways back issues for Sept-Oct 1964, maybe these runs are mentioned.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes, it's also true there are nor many piccies of them on the WCML (or logs, as I have noticed.) But my original point was there are few pics of them in their very early days on the Midland except on Manchester - Derby - London trains. So I question whether they were ever diagrammed for anything else.

In the 1960s, many photographers were concentrating on the end of main line steam. and "diesel" was viewed as the "enemy", something to be ignored.

Colour film, especially, was relatively expensive and used sparingly by many people.
36 exposure Kodachrome film cost 36 shillings (£1.80) which sounds cheap now, but was expensive when you might only have £4 to £5 per week after paying tax, rent, food, etc,. Moreover, many films were also too slow to take quality photos of fast-moving trains, and a typical (affordable) consumer range camera might have a fastest shutter speed of around 1/200th second.

 

[Taunton]

To answer your point about borrowing a Deltics - I would say the ER was probably too unlikely to have let one of their valuable machines go wandering off for 3-4-5 days !

You see, a few years later the Western Region did exactly that, checking out the line between London and Bristol.

 

[edwin_m]

3) What is more intriguing is the entries on D2, a fascinating account of its early years and these high speed runs.

One thing is fairly clear, at least from inference, that D2 was not passed for general running at 100 mph - it was only for the test runs (as I originally surmised).

So, D2 is fitted with a B series engine (with intercooler - this never seems to be mentioned in the Wiki text) from new, so it is 2,500 hp - but, it continues:

"The locomotive was derated to 2,300hp during July 1961 by Sulzer staff at Camden depot. Presumably at its next Works visit the 'B' series engine was exchanged for an 'A' series."

THEN - the first tests begin in August - just after the loco has been downrated!

The page continues:

"In August 1962 test trains were run on the WCML between Liverpool & Euston to evaluate the performance of the overhead line equipment and to confirm that the infrastructure of the route (track condition, signals etc) would meet the rquirements of the upcoming high speed services."

This is peculiar. Why use the downrated D2 for these tests when there were 2,500 hp locos available? Indeed, they coming off Crewe works new on a weekly basis?

And, I'm not sure where the electrification had got to at the time, but it was surely not beyond Stafford or so (it didn't reach Nuneaton until, August or Sept 1964) and the signalling at the southern end of he line was surely NOT up to 100 mph standards.

But even more peculiarly, D2 is once again chosen for high speed tests in 1964.

"D2 returned to the WCML during June 1964 when the locomotive operated out of Camden depot on further high speed test trains between Euston & Liverpool. On June 24th D2 and a seven coach test train made a round trip Euston - Liverpool with considerable running at 100mph plus. The down trip was made in 2hrs 54min, the up trip in 2hrs 41min."

By this time, Cl 47s, which were passed for 95 mph, were around. So why use D2? There was certainly no need by then to test the loco at that speed, there was no way they were going to pass the Cl 45 for anything more than 90 mph by then, and it risked something going wrong. It seems very strange.

If anyone has the Modern Railways back issues for Sept-Oct 1964, maybe these runs are mentioned.

Quarter of page 199 in the September issue confirms use of D2 and does mention a southbound run in 2hr 36.5min. The purpose of the run was to "cover the entire route at nearly as posssible at the speed which will apply when full electric working is introduced, to get an impression of the subjective effect on passengers of sustained high speed and to draw attention to any place where work is required to bring the track up to the required standard."

Which means it was all about the route and not about the traction. I'm guessing that other things were done to D2 to test it at 100mph besides increasing the power, even if it was just a through check-over and making sure it had new wheels (larger diameter) and perhaps a bit of mollycoddling to keep it in better condition than the rest of the fleet. The fitting of Hallade recorders was also mentioned, though I would have thought those would be on the train not the loco. From the above it was clearly still able to attain that speed even after de-rating, though obviously less so with a heavy load or adverse gradient. This was probably the only proven 100mph diesel LMR had that at its disposal, and at the time the regions were sufficiently autonomous that a loan for the benefit of someone else might have been out of the question.

With regard to not using a Class 47, a couple of thoughts occur. Firstly these were nearly new locos and either the traffic department might have been unwilling to release one or there might have been concerns about running it beyond its rated limits (better to break an old one that nobody would miss too much?). Secondly for a high speed test involving (as the article also says) increased cant deficiency, it may have been thought that the Peaks with their leading unmotored wheelset would have been kinder to the track and better understood by the engineers than the relatively new six-wheel bogie of the 47s. If so this would be rather ironic in view of what was specified about the same time for the bogies of class 86...

 

[The Crab]

"In case it is not clear, the answer to your original question, assuming the Wikipedia page is correct - is the last time they were regularly diagrammed for passenger would have been March 1962, before they left the WCML. When they came to the Midland, I'm fairly sure they would not have been allocated to Cl 1 or Cl1 passenger duties, except in emergency."

Thank you 70014 this is exactly what I wanted to know.

Last evening I happened to glance at Trains Illustrated for February 1959 and there was a mention that construction of D1-10 had started for use on the WCML.

 

[70014IronDuke]

In the 1960s, many photographers were concentrating on the end of main line steam. and "diesel" was viewed as the "enemy", something to be ignored.

Colour film, especially, was relatively expensive and used sparingly by many people.

I was still using it sparingly in the 1990s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You see, a few years later the Western Region did exactly that, checking out the line between London and Bristol.

There is a logical reason for this: the ER had more cl 47s available by then, and a 47 (unlike a Cl 40 in 1962) could keep time on Deltic schedules, more or less.

I suspect, however, that the real reason was .....

GF?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quarter of page 199 in the September issue confirms use of D2 and does mention a southbound run in 2hr 36.5min. The purpose of the run was to "cover the entire route at nearly as posssible at the speed which will apply when full electric working is introduced, to get an impression of the subjective effect on passengers of sustained high speed and to draw attention to any place where work is required to bring the track up to the required standard."

Thanks for looking it up.

Which means it was all about the route and not about the traction. I'm guessing that other things were done to D2 to test it at 100mph besides increasing the power, even if it was just a through check-over and making sure it had new wheels (larger diameter) and perhaps a bit of mollycoddling to keep it in better condition than the rest of the fleet.

"besides increasing the power" ? But the didn't, it would appear, because they couldn't - it would have been back to an A series engine by then. (at least according to Wiki.)

I find it difficult to believe in any 'mollycoddlying'. They went to Toton and that was it. Because D2 was used in 1962 for high speed tests would have been forgotten within months - unless (see below)

It would be normal practice to give any loco a good check over before doing any test run(s) - apart from the embarrassment of a failure getting out, there was the cost factor - you didn't want all the engineers and equipment sitting behind a failed loco.

The fitting of Hallade recorders was also mentioned, though I would have thought those would be on the train not the loco. From the above it was clearly still able to attain that speed even after de-rating, though obviously less so with a heavy load or adverse gradient. This was probably the only proven 100mph diesel LMR had that at its disposal, and at the time the regions were sufficiently autonomous that a loan for the benefit of someone else might have been out of the question.

Sorry, not nearly enough evidence for me. The 44s and 45s would have been designed to take 100 mph as a matter of safety margin, even though they were officially 90 mph. It was also clear that they could hit 100mph by then from regular, if illicit, runs on the Midland.

With regard to not using a Class 47, a couple of thoughts occur. Firstly these were nearly new locos and either the traffic department might have been unwilling to release one or there might have been concerns about running it beyond its rated limits (better to break an old one that nobody would miss too much?). Secondly for a high speed test involving (as the article also says) increased cant deficiency, it may have been thought that the Peaks with their leading unmotored wheelset would have been kinder to the track and better understood by the engineers than the relatively new six-wheel bogie of the 47s. If so this would be rather ironic in view of what was specified about the same time for the bogies of class 86...

Well, maybe you are right. Still feels flimsy to me, I'm afraid. Cl 47s were perfectly capable and safe to 105 mph, probably fine to 110.

I do wonder if D2 had, in any way, more modifications that were not recorded publicly. the obvious one would have been traction motors - but I doubt these would have been reliably kept to that loco. Lost in history, I suppose by now, but strange.

 

[edwin_m]

"besides increasing the power" ? But the didn't, it would appear, because they couldn't - it would have been back to an A series engine by then. (at least according to Wiki.)

The very fact that the power appeasr to have been reduced again before the original tests indicates that they could attain 100mph on the original power rating, and therefore uprating again for the WCML tests would be maybe nice to have but not essential.

Well, maybe you are right. Still feels flimsy to me, I'm afraid.

Yes, I agree it is flimsy. However the evidence seems incontrovertible that D2 was used, so there must have been a reason of some sort. Maybe even akin to the old "accounting rebuilds" - D2 was officially permitted to run at 100mph under special circumstances so it was allocated to do so again, even though any fettling that had been done previously would have had to be repeated?

 

[Taunton]

Given that this was in 1962 with the initial 100 electric locos delivered but the Class 86 was still being designed, wonder if it led to "Hey, D2 has got nose-suspended traction motors and that's been OK, why bother with the additional expense of those frame-mounted motors of the original electrics, let's do nose suspended on these new ones, they will ride just fine ...."

 

[Altfish]

Picture of D1 at Stafford here..

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/..._class_geograph-2396440-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg

 

[caliwag]

Aye, to concur with Signalman's Eye above, I copped D4 at Perth 23/1/61
and D7 5/7/61 both ex Anglo-Scottish WCML trains.