Peak and off peak journey anomalies

[yorkie]

I agree but guess that the issue is no one would want to take on a large organisation such as ATOC due to risk of not winning and having to pick up excessive legal costs.

But you wouldn't be. It would be East Coast left with the decision on whether or not to take you on. If they don't, then that can be taken as a victory. But if they do decide to prosecute and the person they prosecute is friends with a lawyer, then the costs for the customer are massively reduced. I would also say that there should surely be a chance of winning, and the media would be interested in such a case. I'd donate to the cause!

I do think that if a collaboration of legal experts, customers and sponsors with cash to fund it then it could be done-although perhaps that would see increase in fares as you point out.

Agreed but I don't think it would, there are not many examples where a ticket that is described as "Super" off peak is valid while a ticket that is apparently not "Super" is valid (for the exact same origin/destination).

I'm not a legal expert but think that the whole fares structure with contradictory rules, hidden rules out of the public domain and lack of clarity makes the system extremely flaky and open to an epic legal challenge that would lead to a start from scratch rewrite of the system-it's not even borderline in some cases but I am not sure it would happen anytime soon.

I agree we have the potential for some rather good rulings in our favour, and I suspect that in certain examples such as the 1900 from KGX above, the customer will be 'let off' to avoid the chance of a defeat for the TOC. This could be seen as a victory for us though.

Already we have established that East Coast policy is in line with what I expect regarding combinations of Advance tickets and finishing 'short' on Advance tickets, despite one or two of their staff acting contrary to that. I'm confident we could get allowing Off Peak Day when Super Off Peak is valid to that list, and I don't think it would result in any fare rises.

 

[premier01]

But you wouldn't be. It would be East Coast left with the decision on whether or not to take you on. If they don't, then that can be taken as a victory. But if they do decide to prosecute and the person they prosecute is friends with a lawyer, then the costs for the customer are massively reduced. I would also say that there should surely be a chance of winning, and the media would be interested in such a case. I'd donate to the cause!


Agreed but I don't think it would, there are not many examples where a ticket that is described as "Super" off peak is valid while a ticket that is apparently not "Super" is valid (for the exact same origin/destination).

I agree we have the potential for some rather good rulings in our favour, and I suspect that in certain examples such as the 1900 from KGX above, the customer will be 'let off' to avoid the chance of a defeat for the TOC. This could be seen as a victory for us though.

Already we have established that East Coast policy is in line with what I expect regarding combinations of Advance tickets and finishing 'short' on Advance tickets, despite one or two of their staff acting contrary to that. I'm confident we could get allowing Off Peak Day when Super Off Peak is valid to that list, and I don't think it would result in any fare rises.

I would also contribute if any such collaborative group was established-it has worked in cases with othe sectors.

 

[Trainbuff]

I have noticed that in Avantix many off-peak tickets are now listed as Outward AND return Travel, or Outward or Return Travel after 09.30 or 08.33. This means that the Off Peak Return section of the ticket (where these are listed. I work in the South West) would NOT be valid and hence subject to an excess. This would answer the point about off peak returns not being valid

 

[phil35]

Are those outward and return restrictions different to the restrictions on the NRE website? i.e. the validity codes that are available to the public (albeit hidden away and not advertised in the slightest) are different to the up-to-date validity codes on guards' Avantix machine?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I would also contribute if any such collaborative group was established-it has worked in cases with othe sectors.

Has it?

If a single passenger sought satisfaction in the Courts over a dispute concerning the validity of an Off Peak ticket, then the dispute would be concerned with an amount of money, say £5 - £20, or if they were required to buy a replacement ticket for a long distance journey, then say £100 - £200.
The costs of a well argued Claim, plus the costs of an Appeal if necessary might be £20,000 - £500,000.

Who would stake so much for so little?

A class action would require the coordinated committment of thousands of participants, participants who have no umbrella body which represents them (such as a trade union). It beggars belief that such a body of committed passengers could be established.

The possibility of a Public Body, such as the Office of Fair Trading being persuaded to challenge the Fares structures and policies would, perhaps, be possible if enough pressure was brought to bear, but they would be very unlikely to act unless there was adequate evidence of those personal losses. It would also be likely that during the process of evidence gathering, the TOCs 'adjusted' their fares structures and policies to remove the threat of a Judgement against them - there would be no liability to to those passengers for their expense in their past journeys' evidence, as the OFT would only be looking at the 'Fairness' of Terms, not the disputed costs.

Arguably, there are elements of Railway policy and Byelaws which may be scrutinised and found wanting purely on the basis of what is written and how they are interpreted. These could be challenged by way of a Judicial Review. Equally expensive, and equally without reward if successful.

So that just leaves my wealthy ancestors who may like to bequeath a few hundred thousand for a 'fighting fund' to pay the costs of Counsel to represent a passenger concerned about a £5 - £20 overcharge (or to challenge the Polcies). Regrettably, and despite having had a very thorough look, I've been unable to find any.