• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

PCV Driver Shifts and GB Driving Hours

Status
Not open for further replies.

Observer

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2014
Messages
799
Apologies if this has been asked before but does anyone have examples (including running boards if they can be shared) of full and part time shifts.

What I want to know are:
  • How long are these shifts in total from start to end time? This includes non driving time.
  • How many hours are companies actually paying for these? As not everyone pays for breaks.
  • Total amount of layover / breaks whether stated on the board or not.
This is purely out of curiosity as I cannot find what I am trying to figure out for myself.

Thank you very much.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Stan Drews

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2013
Messages
2,151
There is such a wide variety of driver duties across the country, that you would need to narrow it down to a specific operator/depot, if you’re looking for a detailed response.
 

Roger1973

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
859
Location
Berkshire
Pretty much what Stan Drews said.

Some operators produce / issue driver duty cards / boards, some issue bus running boards / cards (the practice and the terminology varies from one operator to another) - so at the latter you would either need to trace the driver duties from one bus running boards to another (and then they wouldn't go in to detail about how drivers get between the relief point and the sign on / off point, or what basis they are paid on.

I'm not aware of any operators who put either in the public domain. TFL bus schedules are public domain (here) and show driver duties, but they don't show the sign on point, how drivers get between garage (or remote sign on point - there are a few) and bus, how much paid time is allowed for sign on or sign off, or what the pay arrangements are. In London, most routes have their own duty schedule, but there a few where drivers will work more than one route in the course of a day's work for one reason or another, and more so where night duties are involved - most night duties will involve a short 'first half' on a day route (sometimes but not always the most obviously linked day route) as most night routes only run about midnight to 0500 now.

I think it's unlikely that any operator puts their duty schedules including paid time etc in the public domain, and would have thought most would take a dim view if anyone did.

There's very few standards - each operator has its own way of putting duties / rotas together, and some will have different schedules conditions at different garages / depots, either as a result of local negotiations, or because different depots were historically part of different operators, then there may be different rotas within one garage on separate conditions, e.g. most London operators traditionally work on a standard (say) 38 hour week (or rota average), but some routes lend themselves to longer duties and some rotas may be on 40 - 45 hours a week. Some operators (not aware of it in London but have seen it elsewhere) have adopted a basis of 4 longer days a week for some or all rotas.

In terms of breaks, pay 'sign on to sign off' is increasingly rare, some operators pay something like spreadover minus 40 minutes, unless it's a split / spreadover duty (where the break is more than X amount of time) - the middle bit of a spreadover may then be unpaid, or may attract some sort of allowance. Then you get in to the realms of enhanced 'unsocial hours' rates or enhancements which some operators still do.

Part time work on 'bus' work is still relatively rare, some operators have part time school route drivers, some operators have a small number of duties where drivers do (say) a 5 hour-ish duty that covers either the morning or evening peak, a few operators have rotas where drivers do (say) 3 days a week, but there's even more variables here.
 

Eyersey468

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2018
Messages
2,601
At the company I work for the minimum shift length is 6 hours and most local bus shifts are between 6 and 10 hours long, a few are longer but not many. I'm on the National Express rota which is paid clock to clock and the shifts on there are between 12 and 17 hours long
 

computerSaysNo

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2018
Messages
1,668
I'm on the National Express rota which is paid clock to clock and the shifts on there are between 12 and 17 hours long
How can someone still be fit to drive after being on shift for 17 hours?
Unless it's only non-driving duties which last for 17 hours; I'm not sure if National Express operate multi-crewed?
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
5,457
How can someone still be fit to drive after being on shift for 17 hours?
Unless it's only non-driving duties which last for 17 hours; I'm not sure if National Express operate multi-crewed?
Maximum spreadover of a shift (sign on to sign off) is 15hr (3 times per week max, otherwise 13hr), unless double manned when it is 21hr. Maybe the driver is getting 17hr pay for a 15hr duty??
 

Eyersey468

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2018
Messages
2,601
How can someone still be fit to drive after being on shift for 17 hours?
Unless it's only non-driving duties which last for 17 hours; I'm not sure if National Express operate multi-crewed?
Our London runs are double manned so over the course of a day we are only doing 6-7 hours driving, it's only the Londons that go over 15 hours, the Birminghams and Blackpool that we do are between 12 and 13 hours long
 

Spsf3232

Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
416
Location
Glasgow
Maximum spreadover of a shift (sign on to sign off) is 15hr (3 times per week max, otherwise 13hr), unless double manned when it is 21hr. Maybe the driver is getting 17hr pay for a 15hr duty??
17 hour shift will fall under the 21 hours double manned
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,824
Location
Back office
Due to the nature of work my operation covers, that type of ephemera isn’t a thing as duty cards tend to change on a daily basis rather than being based on periodic schedules. However the T&Cs I offer staff are based on how I’d like to be treated if I was a driver.

  • Significantly above market rate hourly pay
  • Mininum 6 hours pay regardless of how short the duty is
  • Pay from sign on to sign off. No deductions whether that be layover, meal relief or spreadover
  • 2 hours overtime if the duty involves an element of training colleagues
  • Third axle enhancement
  • Enhancements paid for going above and beyond to prevent lost mileage

The actual working hours are largely based on what the client stipulates as they tend to create the duties. Sometimes I create my own duties by moving trips around for any number of reasons.
 

Lewisham2221

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2005
Messages
2,751
Location
Staffordshire
Apologies if this has been asked before but does anyone have examples (including running boards if they can be shared) of full and part time shifts.

What I want to know are:
  • How long are these shifts in total from start to end time? This includes non driving time.
  • How many hours are companies actually paying for these? As not everyone pays for breaks.
  • Total amount of layover / breaks whether stated on the board or not.
This is purely out of curiosity as I cannot find what I am trying to figure out for myself.

Thank you very much.
[My bold] What is it that you are trying to figure out?
 

Lewisham2221

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2005
Messages
2,751
Location
Staffordshire
More on about when is the earliest start time you could do in one shift with all the drivers hours and breaks and the finish time for that.
Again, depends on the depot/operator, the work they do and the way they rota/allocate work.

Where I work, the earliest sign-on time for a driver is about 0400. Starting at that time, the finish time would usually be between 1100 and 1330, depending on the schedules in place at the time
 

Roger1973

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
859
Location
Berkshire
More on about when is the earliest start time you could do in one shift with all the drivers hours and breaks and the finish time for that.

Depends really what work the operator does. Some operations are 24/7 or close to it.

A look at the operator's public timetables may give you a hint - although there may be some works contracts that don't have timetables in the public domain.

For example near me, Reading Buses have some routes that run all night - there are 'night duties' on these, Thames Valley have some routes serving Heathrow Airport that are almost but not quite 24/7 - buses start running round 0300 and some buses finish round 0100 - I think they work these as early / late duties rather than a night shift with a long break, but I can't be sure.

In London, there are night duties that start as early as 1900 and work until about 0300, there are some that start as late as round midnight and work until 0800.

When London Transport was one big organisation, I think the agreement defined a night duty as anything that worked through 0300, but I don't have anything to hand to confirm that. There also used to be an 'unwritten rule' that the earliest starting early duties and latest finishing late duties tended to be at the lower end of the average working day, sometimes even as 'single spell' duties.

Each operator (and sometimes each garage) will have a schedules agreement that will specify just what can be classed as early / middle / late / night, and what the maximum spreadover is (and it's also quite common for split / spreadover duties only to be within a particular window, e.g. no starting before 0630, no finishing after 1930, and only Monday - Friday) but there's no national agreement or legal definition, so long as duties and rotas meet drivers' hours law.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top