Payment Calculation Help

[Andy873]

I'm trying to come to a wages bill per day for 47 Labourers, Navvies and Excavators from 1871 that a contractor had to pay out.

The going rate back then, if they are all paid the same was 3s and 6d.
I get the daily wage bill at £7, 7 Shillings Per Day - Have I got my sums right please?

 

[jfollows]

47x3/6 is 164/6, or £8 4/6, 8 pounds 4 shillings & sixpence

Do the calculation in shillings, in which 3 shillings and sixpence is 3.5 shillings.
47x3.5=164.5
Then convert back.

 

[Gloster]

I agree on £8/4/6, having kept the calculation in old money throughout.

 

[ThirteenArches]

You can get useful comparisons with modern values at Measuring Worth:

Link to Measuring Worth (for English pound)

Here's what 3/6 gets you today:

real price of that commodity is £20.58
labour value of that commodity is £127.00
income value of that commodity is £162.70
economic share of that commodity is £407.70

The website explains the different calculations, from simple RPI inflation to share of the total GDP. The value to the navvies would be somewhere between "labour value" and "income value" I suspect. Either way, it's not bad pay by modern standards, about a thousand a week assuming six and a half days worked.

 

[Taunton]

Bus conductors were a real low paid job, but nevertheless would do some amazing mental arithmetic.
Family on board. "Two and two halves to the beach please". The fare was 1/3, children half price, rounded up.
"Three and ten". Father hands over two half crowns (2/6 each). One shilling and two pence change. And the tickets.

Our buses also had conductor ticket machines that hadn't kept up with fares inflation. They could only do four values 1d, 2d, 3d and 6d, from long strips inside the machine, differently coloured, issued by pressing a small lever on each value. Had to be correct for each passenger, not overall. So :

6-6-2-1-6-6-2-1-6-2-6-2. And the big green, yellow and pink strips would be ripped off and handed over in a flash. Next passenger.

 

[Senex]

I agree on £8/4/6, having kept the calculation in old money throughout.

I agree too. Just out of interest, how would you do it? I'd do it as 47 x 3/- = 141/- , add 47 x ½ a shilling = 23/6, = 164/6 = £8-4-6d.

 

[Gloster]

I agree too. Just out of interest, how would you do it? I'd do it as 47 x 3/- = 141/- , add 47 x ½ a shilling = 23/6, = 164/6 = £8-4-6d.

That was how I did it: although it is nearly sixty years ago, that was probably how I was taught to add money up. Although in those days pounds were beyond my ken and even shillings seldom came my way.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

47 x 7s 0d (effectively double rate) is 329 shillings. Divide by two is 164.5 shillings. 20 shillings in an old pound, so it's £8. 4s 6d.

 

[ThirteenArches]

Of course, that thousand pounds a week was only when you got work. No pay for bad weather or other construction holdups, and once the job was over you were on the tramp again. And no national banks to put your money in to save it should you be eccentric enough to try.

Now, all you who nostalge for old units, what's the weight of a kilderkin of beer if the barrel weighs 2st 12lb 13oz, and a pint of beer weighs 22oz?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Now, all you who nostalge for old units, what's the weight of a kilderkin of beer if the barrel weighs 2st 12lb 13oz, and a pint of beer weighs 11oz?

Not the best of questions. First, how many pints in a 'kilderkin'? And a pint of beer surely has to be more than 11 oz. (= More like 20 oz. unless you're serving frothy beer or short measures!)

 

[jfollows]

172 lb 13 oz or 12 st 4 lb 13 oz
wrong
99lb + 2st 12lb 13oz
9st 13lb 13oz
but the weight of a pint of beer is something like 1lb 4oz I agree
so
198lb + 2st 12lb 13oz based on 22oz weight
17st 13oz
something like that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

Not the best of questions. First, how many pints in a 'kilderkin'?

18 imperial gallons, so 144 pints
Grenwood’s Beer Agency in Fulham used to supply us a long time ago (17 North End Road, W14)
So you’ve got multiples of 18, 16, 14 & 8 to deal with, at least

 

[ThirteenArches]

Yes, I edited the weight of a pint, so easy to get the sums wrong with so many bases to play with. A pint's a pound, the world around, but that's water and mine's stout. As for the kilderkin, that's what you're supposed to know with non- SI units. Along with rod, poles, or perches, drachms, bushels, Troy weight, gills, furlongs, hundredweight, the whole back of the school exercise book (when it didn't warn you not to follow a ball, hoop or playmate into the road- you might get knocked over by an Oxford Commer).

 

[Taunton]

"A pint's a pound, the world around"

No, only in the USA. In the UK it's 20 ounces, not the USA 16 ounces. A pound weight is 16 ounces everywhere. UK schoolkids rhyme was:

A pint ot water
Weighs a pound and a quarter

8 pints = 1 gallon everywhere, which is why the USA gallon is only four-fifths of the UK gallon.

 

[Gloster]

Yes, I edited the weight of a pint, so easy to get the sums wrong with so many bases to play with. A pint's a pound, the world around, but that's water and mine's stout. As for the kilderkin, that's what you're supposed to know with non- SI units. Along with rod, poles, or perches, drachms, bushels, Troy weight, gills, furlongs, hundredweight, the whole back of the school exercise book (when it didn't warn you not to follow a ball, hoop or playmate into the road- you might get knocked over by an Oxford Commer).

…and come to a full stop.

 

[Andy873]

47x3/6 is 164/6, or £8 4/6, 8 pounds 4 shillings & sixpence

I agree on £8/4/6, having kept the calculation in old money throughout.

I agree too. Just out of interest, how would you do it? I'd do it as 47 x 3/- = 141/- , add 47 x ½ a shilling = 23/6, = 164/6 = £8-4-6d.

Thanks folks, I was over £1 out, I was just starting school when Britain went decimal, and as a result was only taught the decimal system regarding money. However I do remember the old coins such as Shillings, Crowns, Half crowns etc.

Not the best of questions. First, how many pints in a 'kilderkin'? And a pint of beer surely has to be more than 11 oz. (= More like 20 oz. unless you're serving frothy beer or short measures!)

It's an interesting question about beer, I've read around 1870'ish a pint of beer was around 2 to 3d a pint. Presumably as a worker doing the digging etc, you'd buy the beer from the contractor? and docked off your weeks wage?

Also, would the contractor need a license to sell it to his workers?

Going back to calculations, it's said a labourer etc could dig / shift / or tip around 14 cubic yards per day. This means that once each person has "processed" 4 cubic yards, he's paid for his wages (3 and 6) plus given you a 6d profit on that. I'm basing my calculations here on the contractor charging the railway company around 1 shilling per cubic yard dug / moved / tipped etc as about (or approaching) 1 shilling seems to be the reasonable going rate per cubic yard to charge.

If this is the case, and let's be kind and say an average of maybe 10 cubic yards per day, per man dug / tipped etc, leaves you the contractor making 6 shillings per man per day as profit times by 47 workings times say 6 days per week.

That makes 6s 6d profit per man, per day, X 6 days = 39 shillings per week?
And times 39 shillings with 47 workers is 1,833 shillings per week? over £91?

 

[jfollows]

8 pints = 1 gallon everywhere, which is why the USA gallon is only four-fifths of the UK gallon.

Approximately, because the US fluid ounce is 4.084% larger than the imperial fluid ounce! Something I didn’t know (I had assumed they were the same) until recently.

 

[AM9]

No, only in the USA. In the UK it's 20 ounces, not the USA 16 ounces. A pound weight is 16 ounces everywhere. UK schoolkids rhyme was:

A pint ot water
Weighs a pound and a quarter

8 pints = 1 gallon everywhere, which is why the USA gallon is only four-fifths of the UK gallon.

Oh the joys of metric measures, - other than bragging that one can, (or should it be could) readily reckon or compute imperial values, SI is far easier both mentally and on paper, so long as you can remember key approximate equivalents, e.g.:

1Kg ≈ 2.2lb, 1m ≈ 39.4in, 1l ≈ 1.75pt, and conversely, 1lb = 454g or 0.454Kg, 1in. = 25.4mm or 0.025m, 1pt (imperial) = 0.568l or 61cu in.​

The imperial to metric conversion is quite easy as there are reminders in the sizes that many grocery products are sold in, - a measure of just how metricated we really are.
For those reading this on a non-desktop e.g. phone etc. the 'approximately equal to' character shown in the metric to imperial equivalents may not be reproduced correctly.

 

[DerekC]

Long multiplication of money! I was taught to do it the strictly logical way. - i.e. 47 x 6d = 282d = 23s 6d = £1 3s 6d; 47 x 3s = 141s = £7 1s; add together = £8 4s 6d. Alleluia!

Thank goodness for decimalisation & metrication, and what a pity no government had the whatsits to carry it through completely. At least the Boris Johnson re- imperialisation initiative died the death after 98.7% of people said they preferred the status quo or a pure metric system - see:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...on-units-of-measurement-consultation-response

What the responses said​

17) The results of our analysis showed that 98.7% of respondents were in favour of using metric units when buying or selling product, either as the primary unit of sale (maintaining status quo) or as the sole unit of sale (purely metric). 1.3% of respondents were in favour of increased use of imperial units when buying or selling products, either by increased choice between using metric and imperial units or moving to a purely imperial system.

18) The breakdown of responses into the 4 categories is as follows:

Overall preference	Number of responses	Percentage of responses
Status quo (keep metric as primary unit of measurement)	81,867	81.1%
More choice (open to increased use of imperial measures)	870	0.9%
Purely metric (completely metric system)	17,798	17.6%
Purely imperial (completely imperial system)	403	0.4%
Total	100,938	100%

Even Mr Farage doesn't seem to see votes in imperial units (other than pictures of him quaffing pints, of course!)

 

[jfollows]

I’m sure I remember a pub in London charging in £sd in the early 1980s, granularity of 6d because the half shilling was still in circulation, although I think it ultimately fell foul of the law. I thought it was a bit silly then, and now I’m glad to see that metric is a done deal, with the usual compromises like speed limits and drinks.
I remember my brother (born 1963) was flummoxed by non-metric measures and calculations whereas I (1961) was taught some of the basics in school.

 

[Gloster]

The old tanner (sixpence) remained legal tender until 30 June 1980 and the 1/2p only went in 1984.

 

[ThirteenArches]

Anyway, we having thoroughly derailed the OP's train of thought, this occurred to me: that there were many other drains on the navvy's income. Payment could be intermittent. There would often simply not have been enough cash in the area to pay everybody. This meant they had to use credit, and places they could get stuff from would be limited to those prepared to take the risk, and charge for doing so. Everything from beef to beer to boot polish to bedspace could be well above ordinary price, and when the wages came, most could be swallowed up paying off the bills, and he was soon back on the slate till the next lot came.

 

[Gloster]

One thought about the total of the wages. Would all of the labourers have been each excavating 14 cu yards a day or would some of the labourers have been moving the spoil away or disposing it: excavating the spoil is not the end of the process? So the 14 cu yards actually requires more than one person to handle it in total.

 

[Rescars]

I agree on £8/4/6, having kept the calculation in old money throughout.

So do I, but I cheated and just looked up the answer in a 1939 ready reckoner which lurks at the back of my bookshelf! An insight into life before electronic calculators!!

 

[LickeyIncliner]

Presumably as a worker doing the digging etc, you'd buy the beer from the contractor? and docked off your weeks wage?

Not necessarily. Some early contractors exploited their workers by paying them in tokens that could only be used in the contractor's own (beer) shops, where the prices were artificially high. There was a name for that system (which I've forgotten); it was eventually made illegal. After that I would expect that contractors only made arrangements to supply beer if the job was somewhere remote with no accessible pub

 

[Gloster]

Not necessarily. Some early contractors exploited their workers by paying them in tokens that could only be used in the contractor's own (beer) shops, where the prices were artificially high. There was a name for that system (which I've forgotten); it was eventually made illegal. After that I would expect that contractors only made arrangements to supply beer if the job was somewhere remote with no accessible pub

It was known as Truck. The Truck Act of 1831 greatly reduced the situations in which the system could be used and the Truck Amendment Act of 1887 largely abolished it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There was a name for that system (which I've forgotten); it was eventually made illegal.

Concur with @Gloster. The "Truck system" was where workers were "paid" in whole or in part, with tokens, or vouchers, or goods, or commodities, or store credit, rather than with coin of the realm.

 

[Rescars]

The Truck system had a long history, much longer than that of the railways. It appears to have started around 1464. We don't often have an excuse to mention the 15th century on this forum!

 

[Henffordd]

Concur with @Gloster. The "Truck system" was where workers were "paid" in whole or in part, with tokens, or vouchers, or goods, or commodities, or store credit, rather than with coin of the realm.

... and I think the shops were known as "Tommy shops". No idea of the provenance.

 

[Gloster]

... and I think the shops were known as "Tommy shops". No idea of the provenance.

It seems to be connected to the use of tommy to mean a bread roll in the sense of the basic provisions. Brewer’s does say ‘archaic’, I am glad to say. (‘I owe my soul to the company store.’)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

... and I think the shops were known as "Tommy shops". No idea of the provenance.

OED claims usage of the term 'Tommy shop' as dating back to at least the early 1820s (it's mentioned in the 'Manchester Guardian' newspaper of the time). And the word 'Truck' apparently comes from the Old French "troque" / "troquer", meaning to exchange or barter or swap, and/or possibly the medieval Latin word "trocāre".