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If your Revenue Inspectors are issuing anything other than an excess for an Off-Peak during peak then they need urgent retraining!
Likewise wrong route and to a degree Advance on wrong train (there are certain scenarios where a PF can be issued for the latter), but a restricted ticket or wrong route is really basic stuff!
I guess it counts as having boarded without a valid ticket in a penalty fare area. And an advance for a different train than the one you are on is not a valid ticket, neither is a off peak in the peak , or a wrong route.
In any case, it's not within my jurisdiction : I just do my best to make sure all folks are sorted prior to any potential revenue encounter.
The two tickets I've been taught not to excess as a Conductor are TOC specific tickets (e.g. TPE only to Any Permitted, a new ticket is required) and Advance tickets (again a new ticket).
No reason e-tickets can't be excessed, I believe there is a specific option on the inspection app that we use (though I've not had to excess an e-ticket since we started using the electronic inspection software) to indicate a ticket is being excessed and then carry out on the mobile ticket machine to issue the excess fare.
An Advance ticket can (and indeed should) be excessed on board if the passenger wishes to use an earlier train than booked and no ticketing facilities were available where they started their journey.
If your Revenue Inspectors are issuing anything other than an excess for an Off-Peak during peak then they need urgent retraining!
Likewise wrong route and to a degree Advance on wrong train (there are certain scenarios where a PF can be issued for the latter), but a restricted ticket or wrong route is really basic stuff!
An Advance ticket can (and indeed should) be excessed on board if the passenger wishes to use an earlier train than booked and no ticketing facilities were available where they started their journey.
NRCoT 10.2.3 allows for penalty fares to be issued for off-peak ticket used during peak. This changed a few years ago.
NRCoT 9.5 also says that where you are using a time-restricted ticket correctly dated but invalid on the service on which you are travelling you will be charged the difference in fares...
9.5. Where you are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an ‘off-peak’ or ‘superoff-peak’ Ticket) that is correctly dated but:
9.5.1. invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2. you are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3. you break your journey when you are not permitted to do so,
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.
Try this link to the penalty fare regulations 2018. It defines a valid ticket early on, and off peak in peak, advance wrong train, and wrong route are all deemed invalid.
Later it says penalty fare for all these, with obvious caveats such as facilities available prior to travel.
I hadn't read this before, but I guess it perhaps over rides NrCOT in penalty fare areas.
These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.
www.legislation.gov.uk
I guess as well that different TOCS might have different policies, such as not issuing penalty fares in certain situations. I suppose that as long as such policies vary the rules in favour of the passenger then they would be ok?
Try this link to the penalty fare regulations 2018. It defines a valid ticket early on, and off peak in peak, advance wrong train, and wrong route are all deemed invalid.
Later it says penalty fare for all these, with obvious caveats such as facilities available prior to travel.
I hadn't read this before, but I guess it perhaps over rides NrCOT in penalty fare areas.
These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.
www.legislation.gov.uk
I guess as well that different TOCS might have different policies, such as not issuing penalty fares in certain situations. I suppose that as long as such policies vary the rules in favour of the passenger then they would be ok?
We are at risk of going off topic and I'm sure @yorkie will have a view but the NRCoT is the contract between the train operating company and the passenger. If the contract says that the difference in fares is payable in the event of a passenger travelling at an invalid time then that is what should happen.
Where there is ambiguity then the outcome most favourable to the passenger should be used.
The contractual terms (NRCoT) cannot be overridden in a way that is detrimental to the customer.
Furthermore, any contractual terms in the NRCoT or any other actions by any train company or its staff must not contravene consumer and competition law, which cannot be overridden in a way that is detrimental to the customer.
The individual representing LNER who contacted you doesn't have a clue.
I don't know if they work for the company or a contractor, but misinformation has long been a problem going back to the days of VTEC/East Coast.
Many train companies have insufficient safeguards in place to prevent seriously misleading statements being made by individuals representing the company, which can include on board staff, station staff, or on this case customer relations staff.
Sometimes these staff are employed directly and sometimes they are contracted, which can depend on the role and the train company involved.
While such a response is disappointing, or is absolutely not surprising.
We are at risk of going off topic and I'm sure @yorkie will have a view but the NRCoT is the contract between the train operating company and the passenger. If the contract says that the difference in fares is payable in the event of a passenger travelling at an invalid time then that is what should happen.
Where there is ambiguity then the outcome most favourable to the passenger should be used.
That’s not universally true. There are other rules of interpretation as well, such as “the specific overrides the general” – the general being paragraph 9, and the specific being “in a penalty fares area, use paragraph 10 instead”.
Additionally, terms in a contract (such as the NRCoT) are inferior to terms in a law (such as the Penalty Fares Regulations) – a contract agreed to between two parties cannot override the law.
"We’re sorry that the information given to you by the previous agent wasn’t correct.
Our stations are not able to amend or change eTickets at our travel centres. However you are correct that on board our services if you have a flexible ticket such as an off peak single, but it is not valid for the time you are travelling, that the train manager will be able to charge you the difference between the fare you paid and the lowest priced walk on fare. Again, I apologise for the misinformation."
New email to LNER:
"I would still like to know how many customers have been overcharged because your booking offices are refusing to excess electronic tickets
Have you started to treat my request as a complaint and escalated as requested?"
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"We’re sorry that the information given to you by the previous agent wasn’t correct.
Our stations are not able to amend or change eTickets at our travel centres. However you are correct that on board our services if you have a flexible ticket such as an off peak single, but it is not valid for the time you are travelling, that the train manager will be able to charge you the difference between the fare you paid and the lowest priced walk on fare. Again, I apologise for the misinformation."
New email to LNER:
"I would still like to know how many customers have been overcharged because your booking offices are refusing to excess electronic tickets
Have you started to treat my request as a complaint and escalated as requested?"
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Slightly off topic- I work in a (not LNER) Ticket Office and I've not been given any instructions on how to deal with a customer (I mean passenger) wishing to excess an e ticket on a mobile etc.
I'm very happy to try to work with customers, although admittedly would advise them to contact the retailer of their original ticket, to see if they can change it. Also I'd have no way of being able to find out whether the original e ticket has been used, whereas I assume revenue protection staff can.
Personally I try to excess tickets (bought from the ticket office) where possible where it avoids me having to none issue/refund a ticket, as it's much easier for me and I guess most customers would prefer to pay the difference for something, instead of getting a full refund then paying again for the more expensive fare.
It’s just not worth it.
The results are neutral at the very worst, but in most cases fall in favour of the railway financially. There’s no point them trying to change this.
Person A, decides to not bother with the excess, they hang around for 2 hours and get their original train. No loss to the railway.
Person B, accepts the lies and buys a new ticket because they really want to be home. This is a win for the railway, often for a substantial amount. They MAY try and get a refund, they may not, if they do, there’s a VERY good chance it’ll be rejected initially or at best, they’ll still be charged an admin fee. This provides a further chance for them to give up.
Person C, is unhappy with their response and decides to get on the train and speak to the guard. The guard issues an excess without problems, the railway gains financially.
Person D is very unhappy and fails the attitude test. A guard reports them for prosecution and the railway makes £800.
In order to improve the customer service here you would need to spend money improving the technology, you’d need to pay to train staff to use it with the results being lower revenue overall. Unless made to do this by a regulatory body (who are funded by the very revenue we are threatening to reduce) there is very little chance of this sort of idea being entertained.
Slightly off topic- I work in a (not LNER) Ticket Office and I've not been given any instructions on how to deal with a customer (I mean passenger) wishing to excess an e ticket on a mobile etc.
I'm very happy to try to work with customers, although admittedly would advise them to contact the retailer of their original ticket, to see if they can change it. Also I'd have no way of being able to find out whether the original e ticket has been used, whereas I assume revenue protection staff can.
Personally I try to excess tickets (bought from the ticket office) where possible where it avoids me having to none issue/refund a ticket, as it's much easier for me and I guess most customers would prefer to pay the difference for something, instead of getting a full refund then paying again for the more expensive fare.
To be fair, it doesn't really matter if you can't tell they've used it, seeing as they'll have to present both the original and excess coupons when travelling. Same as presenting a paper ticket for an excess in that respect really, as you can't necessarily see if that's been used.
new response from Rail Delivery Group （corrected typo：originally LNER）
"
I understand that you have checked the terms and conditions of tickets described in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage document. I also understand that London North Eastern Railway has informed you that they will only upgrade a paper ticket at their ticket office.
I would like to explain that clause 4.2 in the National Rail Conditions of Travel is relevant in specific circumstances.
Clause 4.2 states that some tickets are held as an electronic record on a Smartcard, an electronic device, or transmitted to you for you to print out. In such cases, you will be advised (and must comply) of the specific conditions applying to tickets held in those formats."
Could experts in the forum please advise？
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I feel they're making this up
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surely specific conditions for electronic tickets coexist with conditions that apply to all ticket types（？）
At this point, they've already put more effort into fobbing you off than it would take to implement and push out a method (that already exists) to allow passengers to excess electronic tickets. Their stance is pretty clear it seems, buy a new ticket, that makes them more money. A shame as we would normally expect better of this operator (unlike some) but recent "hot topics" have opened our eyes to the attitude of some staff on the railway so anything is possible.
"
I understand that you have checked the terms and conditions of tickets described in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage document. I also understand that London North Eastern Railway has informed you that they will only upgrade a paper ticket at their ticket office.
I would like to explain that clause 4.2 in the National Rail Conditions of Travel is relevant in specific circumstances.
Clause 4.2 states that some tickets are held as an electronic record on a Smartcard, an electronic device, or transmitted to you for you to print out. In such cases, you will be advised (and must comply) of the specific conditions applying to tickets held in those formats."
Could experts in the forum please advise？
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I feel they're making this up
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surely specific conditions for electronic tickets coexist with conditions that apply to all ticket types（？）
There are no longer any different t&cs for barcode / smart tickets when compared with identical orange mag stripe tickets. I am referring to travelling rights here as opposed to specific usage requirements (eg you must tap in with a smartcard season in some cases).
There are no longer any different t&cs for barcode / smart tickets when compared with identical orange mag stripe tickets. I am referring to travelling rights here as opposed to specific usage requirements (eg you must tap in with a smartcard season in some cases).
I've corrected an earlier typo： it was Rail Delivery Group who sent the most recent response about Clause 4.2
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My response to Rail Delivery Group:
Yes clause 4.2 notes specific conditions for electronic tickets but I'm sure that general conditions in NRCoT still apply (unless specifically excluded), including the clause about excess fares when travelling with a time-restricted ticket.
How can we take this forward?
Some TOCs and some booking offices are forcing customers to buy a new ticket instead of issuing an excess fare, in circumstances where an excess can be issued. This costs the customer much more. TOC passenger charters typically contain blurb about selling the most appropriate ticket.
Clearly this doesn't always happen.
I've highlighted the case of LNER booking offices brickwalling any request to excess an electronic ticket whilst on LNER trains an excess can be issued. LNER have confirmed that to me after initially denying that excess fares can be issued on their trains.
Is it appropriate for me to continue to pursue this consumer rights issue through Rail Delivery Group or should I go elsewhere?
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Latest response from Rail Delivery Group：
“Customer issue: Yes clause 4.2 notes specific conditions for electronic tickets but I'm sure that general conditions in NRCoT still apply (unless specifically excluded), including the clause about excess fares when travelling with a time-restricted ticket.
RDG: They do, but only define that a ticket can be excessed, not how
Customer issue: Some TOCs and some booking offices are forcing customers to buy a new ticket instead of issuing an excess fare, in circumstances where an excess can be issued.
RDG: The only time a ticket office would be unable to excess a ticket of any type is if the Conditions of the fulfilment method prohibits it, which in this case it does and is stated clearly by the original retailer. ”
I still have problems with this... fulfilment method prohibits what? stated clearly? where ???
In the example which triggered this thread I was denied a request to purchase an excess ticket so that I could make my return journey at peak time on a mobile off peak ticket stored in the TFWRail app.
My understanding now is that the original ticket remains valid and does not change when an excess ticket is issued. The excess ticket is only valid if presented together with the original ticket. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
My ticket was sold via TFWRail app. Digging into the app terms and conditions the app redirects to https://tfwrail.wales/terms-and-conditions which states that all ticket purchases are subject to Trainline’s Terms and Conditions. That was well hidden. There is no direct link to trainline terms and conditions in the TFWRail app - only a link to trainline.com two URLs away.
I feel that's deceptive！ I always thought I was doing business directly with the railway and I routinely and deliberately never intentionally use Trainline.com.
Nevertheless I've now reviewed Trainline.com terms and conditions online. These seem tortuous and don't clarify what the specific terms and conditions would be for my ticket or clarify whether Trainline.com or TFWrail is to be contacted should the customer wish to make changes. Trainline terms and conditions don't mention excess fare scenarios at all.
In any case, I have deduced that my original ticket remains valid and does not need to be changed. All I needed was to pay an excess fare.
More from RDG response:
"Customer issue: This costs the customer much more. TOC passenger charters typically contain blurb about selling the most appropriate ticket. Clearly this doesn't always happen.
RDG: As above, the appropriate ticket would be a new one, if the T&Cs of the original ticket state that it should only be amended in-app. Any retailer would be correct to sell a new ticket to cover the new journey."
However I've already deduced that an excess ticket doesn't require amendment of the original ticket. So in my view selling a new ticket is WRONG.
"Customer issue: Is it appropriate for me to continue to pursue this consumer rights issue through Rail Delivery Group or should I go elsewhere?
RDG: This is not a customer rights issue; the customer retains the right to change their ticket, as set out in Conditions 13.2 and 16.4, regardless of the fulfilment method of their ticket. If the customer remains unhappy with the response, they should address their concerns to the Rail Ombudsman.
The Rail Ombudsman is an independent, not-for-profit organisation. They offer a free, expert service to help sort out unresolved customer complaints about service providers within the rail industry. "
Would the forum please correct me or advise further?
I now have a very positive clarification and further action from Transport for Wales who have contacted Rail Delivery Group to resolve the issue I have raised in this thread.
"I have raised this with our Retailing Team, and they have replied confirming that it is possible to excess a ticket purchased through our app. The rules of excess relate to the rules of the ticket product, not the media it is presented on. Therefore, a ticket (product) purchased or displayed in an App (mTicket or eTicket) can be excessed using a paper ticket to display the excess value.
As a result, your local ticket office or any member of staff with the ability to provide an excess fare should be able to provide you with an excess fare.
The issue that may arise is the lack of a five digit ticket serial number on the electronic ticket. The excess fare needs this to show what ticket it corresponds to, however I understand you are aware of the workaround used by entering any five digits as the serial number.
Our Head of Retailing has raised this with the Rail Delivery Group to make the information around excessing tickets presented on different medias more clear, and to ensure that no-one is unfairly disadvantaged for buying a ticket in a certain way. "
Well done TFWRail!
I am continuing my conversation with Rail Delivery Group...
Received a positive phone call from LNER today. I'd forwarded the clarification and action plan from TfWRail that I received yesterday. I understand that the issue is being passed up the management chain at LNER and a change of policy is now anticipated. I've asked to be kept informed and will keep this thread updated.
Also awaiting a further response from Rail Delivery Group. I've queried the source of the RDG statement that the conditions of my TfWRail mobile ticket prohibit excess fare, which is completely at odds with the statement from TfWRail. RDG still seem blind to the problem but TfWRail and LNER have both accepted that a problem exists and both are taking action to resolve it... internally and via RDG.
Received a positive phone call from LNER today. I'd forwarded the clarification and action plan from TfWRail that I received yesterday. I understand that the issue is being passed up the management chain at LNER and a change of policy is now anticipated. I've asked to be kept informed and will keep this thread updated.
Also awaiting a further response from Rail Delivery Group. I've queried the source of the RDG statement that the conditions of my TfWRail mobile ticket prohibit excess fare, which is completely at odds with the statement from TfWRail. RDG still seem blind to the problem but TfWRail and LNER have both accepted that a problem exists and both are taking action to resolve it... internally and via RDG.
Northern's training material says to issue a Penalty Fare in this circumstance, so I don't think having the company doing such training would really be helpful.
Many of the experts appear to have left the organisation to carry out consultancy work
And yes TfW were correct; it's good to see someone get it right!
Many train companies consistently fail to provide adequate staff training as well as lacking sufficient safeguards to prevent overcharging and/or incorrect treatment of customers, to the extent where I tend to be more surprised when they get a question of this nature right than wrong.
Received a positive phone call from LNER today. I'd forwarded the clarification and action plan from TfWRail that I received yesterday. I understand that the issue is being passed up the management chain at LNER and a change of policy is now anticipated. I've asked to be kept informed and will keep this thread updated.
Also awaiting a further response from Rail Delivery Group. I've queried the source of the RDG statement that the conditions of my TfWRail mobile ticket prohibit excess fare, which is completely at odds with the statement from TfWRail. RDG still seem blind to the problem but TfWRail and LNER have both accepted that a problem exists and both are taking action to resolve it... internally and via RDG.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
www.legislation.gov.uk
