Pay more for connections on First Class?

[blakey1152]

I'm travelling up to Birmingham next week and I've bought advance first class tickets for travel on the 1159 from Euston to Birmingham on the 13th December and my return journey is on the 1350 on the 15th December.

I usually find its cheaper to Oyster from local station Slade Green up to Euston rather than buying a direct ticket for the entire journey but I always check just in case and I spotted something that's a little bit unfair with the pricing structure for the direct ticket if you have an advance first class ticket.

If I bought a standard class advance from Euston to Birmingham it was showing a fare of £20, which increased to £32.30 if I changed the starting station to Slade Green - so an addition of £12.30 for buying a through ticket.
But for first class advance the ticket price rose from £51.80 to £67.20 - an increase of £15.40 for having a through First Class advance ticket.

If my maths is correct here, travelling with a first class advance over a standard class advance on the connecting services to and from Euston costs the passenger an extra £3.10 yet there is no First Class fares for the journey between Euston and Slade Green - in fact apart from the one end of the Thameslink trains there isn't any first class seating either.

Even worse, a walk up single fare between Slade Green and Euston costs a maximum of £7.80 so charging nearly double that for a connecting train is outrageous.

In fact, as far as I can see the only benefit of buying the through ticket would be you would have protection if Southeastern has some sort of major chaos and you can't get to Euston in time despite catching the recommended trains.

 

[JonathanH]

The point here is to do with fares clusters. While there is no first class on trains from London to Slade Green (other than declassified first class on 465/9s and 700s), there is first class from, for example London to East Croydon. The same price applies from Birmingham to basically most of London and it isn't for Avanti to price their fare differently for stations in London which do and don't have first class.

Again, with the difference between £20 and £32.30 for the through fare. The fare of £32.30 applies for travel between cluster T220, broadly any station in the West Midlands, and T252, broadly any station in South East London, so the add on is for other operators at both ends.

See fares cluster shown part way down this page for the Avanti plus connections advance fares at V2Q level https://www.brfares.com/!expert?orig=BHM&dest=SGR

The add ons have become more expensive in recent years for most of the long distance operators. They are likely to have more freedom over setting fares just for their services.

 

[blakey1152]

The point here is to do with fares clusters. While there is no first class on trains from London to Slade Green (other than declassified first class on 465/9s and 700s), there is first class from, for example London to East Croydon. The same price applies from Birmingham to basically most of London and it isn't for Avanti to price their fare differently for stations in London which do and don't have first class.

Again, with the difference between £20 and £32.30 for the through fare. The fare of £32.30 applies for travel between cluster T220, broadly any station in the West Midlands, and T252, broadly any station in South East London, so the add on is for other operators at both ends.

See fares cluster shown part way down this page for the Avanti plus connections advance fares at V2Q level https://www.brfares.com/!expert?orig=BHM&dest=SGR

The add ons have become more expensive in recent years for most of the long distance operators. They are likely to have more freedom over setting fares just for their services.

That does make sense, and also means that nearly every single time it will be cheaper to split the tickets!
Just a thought, would a through advance ticket from Slade Green to Birmingham be valid by travelling to Gravesend then on HS1 into St Pancras?

 

[185143]

That does make sense, and also means that nearly every single time it will be cheaper to split the tickets!
Just a thought, would a through advance ticket from Slade Green to Birmingham be valid by travelling to Gravesend then on HS1 into St Pancras?

If you can get an itinerary, since HS1 trains are reservable* then yes.

*not in the sense of seat reservations, but a counted place.

 

[JonathanH]

If you can get an itinerary, since HS1 trains are reservable* then yes.

*not in the sense of seat reservations, but a counted place.

I doubt an itinerary from Slade Green to Birmingham via Gravesend can be found on one ticket.

Dartford via Gravesend seems possible but, firstly, the peak time bar on advance tickets on HS1 may be an issue and, secondly, the availability of a quota on the HS1 service might push up the fare.

 

[blakey1152]

I doubt an itinerary from Slade Green to Birmingham via Gravesend can be found on one ticket.

Dartford via Gravesend seems possible but, firstly, the peak time bar on advance tickets on HS1 may be an issue and, secondly, the availability of a quota on the HS1 service might push up the fare.

I had to have a look, I can book a ticket and get an itinerary from Slade Green to Birmingham via Gravesend for today using HS1 but when I changed the date to Monday 13th December this vanished....

 

[robbeech]

In fact, as far as I can see the only benefit of buying the through ticket would be you would have protection if Southeastern has some sort of major chaos and you can't get to Euston in time despite catching the recommended trains.

This isn’t correct. You can use multiple tickets for your journey as per 14.1 of the National Rail Conditions of travel. Therefore you would (legally speaking) be permitted to board a later service if you were delayed provided you adhered to the minimum connection times and where relevant the minimum transfer time across London.

Of course in practise an increasing number of staff have insufficient knowledge to do their job. Add that to the very profit focussed nature of the railway and the fact it is almost entirely unregulated in real world terms and there’s a chance that you’ll be unlawfully prohibited from completing your journey with valid tickets. This is sadly how the railway operates.

 

[JonathanH]

This isn’t correct. You can use multiple tickets for your journey as per 14.1 of the National Rail Conditions of travel. Therefore you would (legally speaking) be permitted to board a later service if you were delayed provided you adhered to the minimum connection times and where relevant the minimum transfer time across London.

All well and good but someone travelling from Slade Green to Euston is most likely going to be travelling on Oyster or Contactless and therefore not have the tickets to prove the through journey, particularly in the return direction. Even on the way there, they might travel to St Pancras (Thameslink) to avoid the mixed-mode premium, which isn't a recognised interchange for Euston.

 

[wellhouse]

It used to be the case that available First Class Advance Fares from Huddersfield to London via Leeds were far more expensive than a combination of an Advance from Leeds to London and an Anytime First Class single from Huddersfield to Leeds.

I can understand that Transpennine might have barred Advance quotas on their services, but there must be some aspect of ORCATS revenue allocation that generates such anomalies.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It used to be the case that available First Class Advance Fares from Huddersfield to London via Leeds were far more expensive than a combination of an Advance from Leeds to London and an Anytime First Class single from Huddersfield to Leeds.

I can understand that Transpennine might have barred Advance quotas on their services, but there must be some aspect of ORCATS revenue allocation that generates such anomalies.

The fares for LNER only Advance used to start a couple of levels lower than Advance that involved another operator. This has changed recently

 

[yorkie]

I'm travelling up to Birmingham next week and I've bought advance first class tickets for travel on the 1159 from Euston to Birmingham on the 13th December and my return journey is on the 1350 on the 15th December.

I usually find its cheaper to Oyster from local station Slade Green up to Euston rather than buying a direct ticket for the entire journey but I always check just in case and I spotted something that's a little bit unfair with the pricing structure for the direct ticket if you have an advance first class ticket.

If I bought a standard class advance from Euston to Birmingham it was showing a fare of £20, which increased to £32.30 if I changed the starting station to Slade Green - so an addition of £12.30 for buying a through ticket.
But for first class advance the ticket price rose from £51.80 to £67.20 - an increase of £15.40 for having a through First Class advance ticket.

If my maths is correct here, travelling with a first class advance over a standard class advance on the connecting services to and from Euston costs the passenger an extra £3.10 yet there is no First Class fares for the journey between Euston and Slade Green - in fact apart from the one end of the Thameslink trains there isn't any first class seating either.

Even worse, a walk up single fare between Slade Green and Euston costs a maximum of £7.80 so charging nearly double that for a connecting train is outrageous.

In fact, as far as I can see the only benefit of buying the through ticket would be you would have protection if Southeastern has some sort of major chaos and you can't get to Euston in time despite catching the recommended trains.

The best thing to do is simply book through a split ticket provider such as Trainsplit, who will work out if it's cheaper to split.

The only caveat is that if your journey starts in the PAYG area you may wish to compare fares from origin, with those from the relevant London Terminal.

But be careful if using PAYG: allow plenty of interchange time in case of delays; using Contactless/Oyster may make it difficult if delays occur, both to gain access to a later service and also to claim delay compensation. I'd take an earlier train than the minimum interchange time allows, for extra security and be prepared to argue your case if necessary.

 

[paul1609]

The best thing to do is simply book through a split ticket provider such as Trainsplit, who will work out if it's cheaper to split.

The only caveat is that if your journey starts in the PAYG area you may wish to compare fares from origin, with those from the relevant London Terminal.

But be careful if using PAYG: allow plenty of interchange time in case of delays; using Contactless/Oyster may make it difficult if delays occur, both to gain access to a later service and also to claim delay compensation. I'd take an earlier train than the minimum interchange time allows, for extra security and be prepared to argue your case if necessary.

The problem with through London bookings on Trainsplit is that it will only show you through tickets or splits on the first minimum connection from you south of London train whereas if you drop a train you may find far cheaper advance quotas. In the majority of cases you are far better planning your journey from London Terminals and then matching South of the river trains to it. This is especially true where you live on routes with limited service and alternative priced routes up to London.

 

[yorkie]

The problem with through London bookings on Trainsplit is that it will only show you through tickets or splits on the first minimum connection from you south of London train whereas if you drop a train you may find far cheaper advance quotas.

That shouldn't happen, unless you are in fast mode.

Do you have a current example of this, which is reproduceable?

If so I will ask the developers at Trainsplit & their suppliers to see if they can look into it; they are on this forum so I can simply link them to your post. It may be best posted as a dedicated thread, with a link from here.

In the majority of cases you are far better planning your journey from London Terminals and then matching South of the river trains to it. This is especially true where you live on routes with limited service and alternative priced routes up to London.

Trainsplit does this in the value/cheaper mode.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

That does make sense, and also means that nearly every single time it will be cheaper to split the tickets!
Just a thought, would a through advance ticket from Slade Green to Birmingham be valid by travelling to Gravesend then on HS1 into St Pancras?

Hang on, reality check here!

£12.30 for a single journey from within the GLA area to Euston, with an extra £3.10 for first class (which doesn't actually exist on this route) does NOT make sense. The add-on fares system may be convenient to the fares setters when pricing ADV fares, but (in this example) it doesn't give a result which is convenient for passengers...

This is the kind of thing that gives rail fares a bad name!

 

[30907]

Hang on, reality check here!

£12.30 for a single journey from within the GLA area to Euston, with an extra £3.10 for first class (which doesn't actually exist on this route) does NOT make sense. The add-on fares system may be convenient to the fares setters when pricing ADV fares, but (in this example) it doesn't give a result which is convenient for passengers...

This is the kind of thing that gives rail fares a bad name!

Fair point, but it was done to produce headline Advance fares where the operator keeps 100% of the revenue.
However, it isn't (now) true across the board as Wallsendmag states.

 

[blakey1152]

The best thing to do is simply book through a split ticket provider such as Trainsplit, who will work out if it's cheaper to split.

The only caveat is that if your journey starts in the PAYG area you may wish to compare fares from origin, with those from the relevant London Terminal.

But be careful if using PAYG: allow plenty of interchange time in case of delays; using Contactless/Oyster may make it difficult if delays occur, both to gain access to a later service and also to claim delay compensation. I'd take an earlier train than the minimum interchange time allows, for extra security and be prepared to argue your case if necessary.

Absolutely, the benefit of having a first class advance and using PAYG to get to Euston along with leaving early is you can always spend any excess time in the First Class lounge