Pay dispute at London Underground

[bluegoblin7]

I'm sure all the nurses, teachers, hospitality workers and general public who won't be able to get to work or their holidays will completely understand the plight, terrible pay and conditions that these poor train drivers are forced to endure, and will support them to the hilt. I know I do.

Except, of course, it's not just train drivers.

Customer Service Assistant 2s, the lowest paid frontline, operational band, are currently on £30,381. A 5% pay increase will take them to £31,900.

Even before taking into account things like tax, NI and pensions contributions, this works out at an increase of around £116 per four weekly period (LUL pays four weekly).

A messy calculation to throw in deductions comes out as just over £2,000 take home - would you be assaulted, threatened and more for that? I suspect not.

Food inflation is still at around 4% - this pay deal is backdated to April 2023. It is a real terms pay cut.

What about TfL Commissioner Andy Lord getting an 11% pay rise of £40,000? If it's good enough for Andy, surely everyone else should get it?

Let's fight for us all to have a better life, not pit different sectors against each other. You too could have a strong and effective union if you organised.

 

[Tube driver]

I'm sure all the nurses, teachers, hospitality workers and general public who won't be able to get to work or their holidays will completely understand the plight, terrible pay and conditions that these poor train drivers are forced to endure, and will support them to the hilt. I know I do.

Think you'll find most drivers (well, about 75% anyway) will be turning up.

Aslef have agreed to accept the offer.

Try harder next time.

 

[Thirteen]

If TfL somehow manages to improve the pay offer, would ASLEF members be able to benefit.

 

[bluegoblin7]

If TfL somehow manages to improve the pay offer, would ASLEF members be able to benefit.

Unfortunately yes, as would any non-members.

Conversely LUL could impose the offer on the table for all staff even with RMT’s rejection.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Looks like there will be massive disruption from Jan 6 until Jan 12. Sadiq may be forced to issue work notices.

I've not read details about the legal side but surely he can't be 'forced' to do anything. I would expect as the Mayor he has the choice to use it or not use it.
Regardless he already said the minimum service levels legislation "isn't fit for purpose for TfL in relation to safety requirements" on the Tube so I very much doubt he will. And he's completely right - there's no current way it would work logistically.

Whether work notices can be issued to enable a 40% minimum service depends on which jobs are being done by those taking strike action. Work notices to run exactly 40% of the service on heavy rail category A and light rail including London Underground category C can be issued for the operation of trains including driving and infrastructure that supports the operation of trains but not for station services.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/658081efed3c34000d3bfaf9/strikes-minimum-service-levels-passenger-railway-services-regulations-2023-guidance-on-the-regulations.pdf

Station services are not included in the scope of train operation services so the light rail operator cannot use a work notice for strikes on these services

 

[43066]

Whether work notices can be issued to enable a 40% minimum service depends on which jobs are being done by those taking strike action. Work notices to run exactly 40% of the service on heavy rail category A and light rail including London Underground category C can be issued for the operation of trains including driving and infrastructure that supports the operation of trains but not for station services.

It seems highly unlikely that the tube could operate safely at 40% service levels, due to the potential overcrowding. Almost certainly won’t happen.

 

[bramling]

It seems highly unlikely that the tube could operate safely at 40% service levels, due to the potential overcrowding. Almost certainly won’t happen.

One presumes it depends on how the 40% is defined though? For example presumably someone could designate 40% of mileage or trains running but concentrate resources on running a frequent service but on core sections of the network only? Though of course this would only work in places where there are facilities to run such a service.

 

[43066]

One presumes it depends on how the 40% is defined though? For example presumably someone could designate 40% of mileage or trains running but concentrate resources on running a frequent service but on core sections of the network only? Though of course this would only work in places where there are facilities to run such a service.

I suppose so, albeit are there that many locations where it would be feasible to do that?

It seems likely MSLs will be viewed by mayor Khan as another opportunity to create a political wedge issue between TfL and central government (for once I’m in total agreement with him ).

 

[Thirteen]

It seems likely MSLs will be viewed by mayor Khan as another opportunity to create a political wedge issue between TfL and central government (for once I’m in total agreement with him ).

No doubt Susan Hall will be moaning that if she becomes Mayor, she'll use MSLs.

 

[bramling]

I suppose so, albeit are there that many locations where it would be feasible to do that?

Not really in the central area, as most reversing facilities wouldn’t be able to support a frequent service.

But it might be possible to provide some level of useful service in the suburbs, if for no other reason than to annoy drivers.

It seems likely MSLs will be viewed by mayor Khan as another opportunity to create a political wedge issue between TfL and central government (for once I’m in total agreement with him ).

Isn’t it lovely how our politicians excel at playing political games, rather than doing their best for the country / population?

 

[43066]

No doubt Susan Hall will be moaning that if she becomes Mayor, she'll use MSLs.

She may well do, but I’ve got more chance of winning the Euromillions then she has of entering city hall! I’ll be genuinely staggered if there’s a non-Labour Mayor of London ever again.

Isn’t it lovely how our politicians excel at playing political games, rather than doing their best for the country / population?

Isn’t it just!? I’ll refrain from saying more to avoid dragging the thread off topic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

Not really in the central area, as most reversing facilities wouldn’t be able to support a frequent service.

But it might be possible to provide some level of useful service in the suburbs, if for no other reason than to annoy drivers.

Just as I suspected re. the central areas.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

she has of entering city hall!

Pedantic point! She is a Greater London Assembly Member, and as such she already enters City Hall on most working days.

 

[kw12]

One presumes it depends on how the 40% is defined though? For example presumably someone could designate 40% of mileage or trains running but concentrate resources on running a frequent service but on core sections of the network only? Though of course this would only work in places where there are facilities to run such a service.

The 40% is an aggregate across the system, not line by line. Therefore, another (and possibly simpler) approach could be to select two sets of lines (or parts of lines) that each contain around 40% of services. Run a near normal service on the first set on the first strike day (with nothing on other lines) and then switch to the second set on the next strike day.

 

[43066]

Pedantic point! She is a Greater London Assembly Member, and as such she already enters City Hall on most working days.

Fair point. I should have said entering City Hall as mayor!

 

[Carlisle]

It may be the case for travel agreements, but each negotiates under different collective bargaining arrangements for pay and conditions, so I would say we are not as close as you think.

Reminds me of all those disputes about the 2012 Olympic bonus in the sectors that were initially offered nothing.

 

[Lifelong]

Speaking here as an employer of many who normally rely on tubes for travel to work - and can’t WFH - can the well-informed members here opine whether they feel there’s any chance of the strikes being called off as they were previously at late notice (we are putting all our contingency planning from then into good use for next week, but would rather not…)…I assume no chance this time but thought I’d ask - is there anything meaningful happening to try and avoid the strikes in terms of any talks etc at this point? Cheers

 

[bluegoblin7]

All I am comfortable saying on a public forum is that talks are ongoing. If there is movement either way it is likely to be known today.

 

[Mawkie]

Speaking here as an employer of many who normally rely on tubes for travel to work - and can’t WFH - can the well-informed members here opine whether they feel there’s any chance of the strikes being called off as they were previously at late notice (we are putting all our contingency planning from then into good use for next week, but would rather not…)…I assume no chance this time but thought I’d ask - is there anything meaningful happening to try and avoid the strikes in terms of any talks etc at this point? Cheers

I'm not sure anyone here can really answer that. I know talks are continuing today, but the first tranche of stike action starts this evening, so hopefully there is some movement today.

Is it worth repeating what the RMT are asking the Company to address?

THE BELOW RPI INCREASE

THE FREEZING OF PAY BANDS

THE FAILURE TO OFFER ANY ADDITIONAL INCREASE TO MEMBERS ON LOWER WAGES

THE FAILURE TO MAKE ANY PROGRESS ON PRIV

 

[Lifelong]

Appreciate the responses. We will wait until 4.00pm then until implementing plan B

 

[bluegoblin7]

Action on.

5 January 2024

RMT Press Office:

London Underground workers will take strike action during the next week, over pay, grading structures and travel facilities.

The action will begin tonight at 6pm when maintenance train workers at Ruislip Depot will walk out for 24 hours.

Control staff will strike on Sunday for 24 hours and from Monday to Wednesday nearly 10,000 RMT members will strike across the Tube.

Despite direct talks with TfL, tube bosses failed to come up with a proposal that was acceptable to the London Underground workforce.

An RMT spokesperson said: "TfL has failed to avert this strike by not offering a deal that was acceptable to our members on London Underground.

"We do not take strike action lightly but we are determined to get a negotiated settlement on pay, travel facilities and a grading structure that means our members will not lose out."

END

Strike action by London Underground workers will be as follows:

- Friday 5 th January 18:00 hours to Saturday 6th January 17:59 hours

- Sunday 7th Jan 00:01 to Monday 8th January 23:59 hours – LU Control Centre, Track Access Control and Power Control

- Monday 8th January 00:01 hours to Wednesday 10th January 23:59 hours – including Station Staff and Train Operators among others

- Tuesday 9th January 00:01 hours to Thursday 11th January 23:59 hours – Service Controllers, Signallers and Line Information

Note the dates and times in the press release are incorrect and remain as previously advertised.

Tube strikes to go ahead after talks fail to make progress

London Underground workers will take strike action during the next week, over pay, grading structures and travel facilities.

www.rmt.org.uk

 

[Thirteen]

Mark Harper probably will be complaining how bad Sadiq Khan is for not using MSLs on one of the various morning shows on Monday.

I suspect Susan Hall will be as well but in the unlikely event she wins in May, I do think she's in for a nasty shock if she tries to force the unions to work during strikes.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Mark Harper probably will be complaining how bad Sadiq Khan is for not using MSLs on one of the various morning shows on Monday.
I suspect Susan Hall will be as well but in the unlikely event she wins in May, I do think she's in for a nasty shock if she tries to force the unions to work during strikes.

I also see the following press article

Keith Prince AM calls on London Mayor to ensure Londoners can get to and from work next week after planned strikes.

Keith Prince, Assembly Member for Havering and Redbridge and Transport spokesman for City Hall Conservatives is calling on Sadiq Khan to use new minimum service laws to ensure Londoners can get to …

thehaveringdaily.co.uk

If the service cannot run because the stations are closed due to station staff being on strike the Minimum Service Legislation is of no use because work notices cannot be issued to staff providing station services. These Conservative politicians should read and understand the Minimum Service Legislation passed under this Conservative Government before making statements. I note that during strikes by London Underground station staff Great Northern services to Moorgate terminate at Finsbury Park because the stations after Finsbury Park into and including Moorgate are managed by London Underground. There is no industrial action at Great Northern and ASLEF is not involved in this strike on the London Underground.

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/service-updates?uq=638400704357890000#INCF295B1F9DE69479188B42D0307DC60C9

Some stations on our network are managed by London Underground, as a result the following alterations will apply:

Monday 8 and Wednesday 10 January - There will be NO Great Northern service at the following stations:
Drayton Park
Highbury & Islington
Essex Road
Old Street
Moorgate

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/658081efed3c34000d3bfaf9/strikes-minimum-service-levels-passenger-railway-services-regulations-2023-guidance-on-the-regulations.pdf

Station services are not included in the scope of train operation services so the light rail operator cannot use a work notice for strikes on these services

 

[bluegoblin7]

And even if station services were covered by the legislation, the time period for issuing a work notice even for the final day of the strike has passed. Oh well.

 

[endicomark69@g]

Mark Harper probably will be complaining how bad Sadiq Khan is for not using MSLs on one of the various morning shows on Monday.

I suspect Susan Hall will be as well but in the unlikely event she wins in May, I do think she's in for a nasty shock if she tries to force the unions to work during strikes.

The only good thing about that legislation is that it's far too complicated for the dribbling idiots that brought it in to apply to something of equal complexity like the Tube.

Not that their mouthpieces won't be gobbing off pretending that they would use it if they had the chance..........which of course they won't.

 

[kw12]

the time period for issuing a work notice even for the final day of the strike has passed.

Indeed. Perhaps Mr Khan is kicking himself for not instructing TfL to issue work notices, just in case the talks were unsuccessful.

Or perhaps the Government is kicking itself for not making next year's capital funding settlement conditional on TfL using the MSL.

 

[D7666]

Indeed. Perhaps Mr Khan is kicking himself for not instructing TfL to issue work notices, just in case the talks were unsuccessful.

Or perhaps the Government is kicking itself for not making next year's capital funding settlement conditional on TfL using the MSL.

Or perhaps Mr.Khan and uk dot gov mindful both have elections in 2024, London mayor only 4 mo in May. Enforcing unpopular legislation, even if law and empowered to do so, is a potential vote loser.

 

[Recessio]

Are negotiations continuing through the week? Is there any chance of this getting called off halfway through the week if a successful deal is reached?

 

[bluegoblin7]

No further talks are planned at this stage.

 

[317 forever]

Where the RMT have helped themselves but not the public is that, by having different categories of staff strike on different days, they are largely crippling the service for the best part of a whole week without losing the full week's pay. Staff who turn up will still need to be paid even if it not feasible or not safe to run a service.

 

[bluegoblin7]

That's sort of the point.