Pax rights wrt Railcard 1000 restriction

[Pumbaa]

Do I have grounds to complain here?;

Turned up at Hemel station at 0945 for the 1005 train, as it's the first off-peak I can use my railcard at discounted rate. There are three TVMs and three ticket windows. Of these, 2 TVMs are OOU displaying an error screen, the third TVM wouldn't sell me a discounted ticket until 1000. Only one ticket clerk is there and severely overwhelmed by the number of pax. The gateline attendant RPI was having problems with his Avantix Mobile.

Problem as such; with a 10 min queue for the RPI and a bigger one for the ticket office, I was forced to buy from the TVM at the undiscounted rate. The ticket was purchased at 1003, and is clearly printed on the ticket as such. The booking was made with the TVM after 1000 and would still not offer a discounted ticket.

Would an application for the difference in fare returned to me be successful here? Catching a later train was not an option, due to onwards journeys, and I had allowed plenty of time to get a ticket from what is usually 6 different points (3 TVM, 2 Ticket Clerk, 1 RPI).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Worth a try; at more than one station I have been able to buy off peak tickets ( including travelcards ) shortly before even the last peak train has departed - though that'#s from a person not a machine.

 

[Pumbaa]

Worth a try; at more than one station I have been able to buy off peak tickets ( including travelcards ) shortly before even the last peak train has departed - though that'#s from a person not a machine.

I've always been able to buy from the clerk well before the restriction, they're usually pretty good at Hemel and Watford. But that just wan't possible yesterday - it'd have taken me a year to queue!

 

[yorkie]

Where the ticket you require is not available, what you are supposed to do is pay for a fare that is less than the fare you require, then pay the excess at the first available opportunity (remember the West Brompton to Bletchley topic?). However if you pay more then I would hope that you would be refunded as it would seem absurd for the railway to punish people for paying more!

Off Peak fares are supposed to be available "at any time" and if the clerk is concerned that the ticket may be misused, they can write "Not valid until XX:XX" on the ticket. It is not completely clear to me whether the same applies to minimum fare restrictions, but I would have thought so.

I'd write to LM (or ask one of their employees here) what they think you are supposed to do in such a circumstance, not just for how to get your money back this time, but if it happens in future.

London Midland's passengers charter says, "you should not have to wait for more than 3 minutes before being served and no more than 5 minutes at peak (busier) times" If they are attempting to force people to wait for 10+ minutes, then I would suggest that it is put to LM that the staff at HML have disregarded the Passengers Charter, and what do they intend to do about that? Do they value it? They say "We will monitor our queuing times" - whom monitors them, and was monitoring occurring at HML? "...we make reasonable endeavours.." what are they? I assume they mean letting people through the barriers to buy at their destination? Why was this not done when queuing times were greater than three times what they "should" be and how bad do the queues have to get before this is done?

Over to LM to give us, hopefully, a very reasonable response...
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Worth a try; at more than one station I have been able to buy off peak tickets ( including travelcards ) shortly before even the last peak train has departed - though that'#s from a person not a machine.

Off Peak fares are available for purchase "at any time" not just shortly before (or after!) the last off peak train has departed.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/simple_fares.html

A minority of staff do not adhere to this policy, I suggest that they are informed of it and given opportunity to comply. If they do not comply, they are in breach of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, compliance with that is a franchise commitment for all TOCs, it is not optional.

They can write "Restrictions advised" or "Valid after XX:XX" on the ticket if they have concerns.

 

[MikeWh]

If off-peak tickets should be available at any time, surely they should also be available from TVMs at any time? The TVM should be able to display a warning that the passenger has to accept reminding them that it is not valid until XX:XX. There must be many places with a train on or just after the end of the peak time where using a TVM becomes impossible.

 

[FGWman]

Clearly the TVM was wrongly programmed as it should have sold you the relevant ticket at 1000. As you say it show time of purchse at 1003 then send in a complaint with a copy of your ticket and demand a refund.

 

[EltonRoad]

It is ridiculous for the machines to restrict sale of off peak tickets until off peak times, not least because you can buy them in advance. A simple message on the screen and / or on the ticket would suffice.

 

[CarterUSM]

I'm not sure i would complain and demand, perhaps try commenting and politely asking for a refund. Then complain and demand afterwards if they aren't forthcoming!

 

[RJ]

Assuming you get off the train at station with a LM ticket office, I presume the staff could do a non issue/reissue in this circumstance. It would have to be verified that there was no train leaving between time of purchase and 10:00.

 

[John @ home]

It would have to be verified that there was no train leaving between time of purchase and 10:00.

Why would it have to be verified that there was no train leaving between 10:00 and 10:03?

 

[RJ]

Why would it have to be verified that there was no train leaving between 10:00 and 10:03?

I don't know, you tell me.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure i would complain and demand, perhaps try commenting and politely asking for a refund. Then complain and demand afterwards if they aren't forthcoming!

Well, yes, the letter should be suitably worded of course! I doubt a 'demand' would need to be made as such, as I don't think they are going to refuse!

I think several questions need to be raised, but LM should be given opportunity to answer them. I know in the past we have had some very good responses from LM, so I hope that we get another good response this time round!

The main thing is to be assertive, and constructive, rather than demanding and complaining.

Pumbaa - if you would like any proof reading doing, let me know.

 

[John @ home]

The ticket was purchased at 1003, and is clearly printed on the ticket as such.

It would have to be verified that there was no train leaving between time of purchase and 10:00.

Why would it have to be verified that there was no train leaving between 10:00 and 10:03?

I don't know, you tell me.

You claim this is necessary.

 

[island]

I think RJ may have misunderstood that the ticket was/was to be purchased before 1000.

 

[RPI]

I know a lot of TVM's are programmed to sell OP tickets at about 20 mins before the first OP train, and in some cases where services are less frequent then they will sell them about 5 mins after the last peak train has departed.

 

[b0b]

This is the most simple thing to solve, simply have the TVM ask
"This ticket is not valid until 1000. If you understand and agree, press Yes to continue or press cancel to void".

Then mark the ticket somehow to show the purchaser was presented and agreed to the terms.

 

[RJ]

This is the most simple thing to solve, simply have the TVM ask
"This ticket is not valid until 1000. If you understand and agree, press Yes to continue or press cancel to void".

Then mark the ticket somehow to show the purchaser was presented and agreed to the terms.

All this will do is increase the amount of time people spend at TVMs and the amount of confused people who need their tickets changing. It doesn't matter how much publicity is put out, people will complain if they are sold a ticket that they can't use at the time.

You claim this is necessary.

I was stating what the procedure may be when it comes to non availability of time restricted tickets. Obviously it only applies if the ticket was purchased before 10:00. Where's the gratuitity in being obsessively pedantic?

 

[bnm]

Where's the gratuitity in being obsessively pedantic?

I don't know, you tell me.

 

[yorkie]

I recommend not using the abbreviation "OP", the reason being that in ATOC-speak "OP" means "Super Off Peak" although it doesn't matter in this topic, it can cause confusion elsewhere.

As for the issue of selling tickets before they are valid, the TOC is obliged to sell them. It is the TOCs problem, not the customers, with regard to how to prevent people boarding earlier trains than valid, if the TOC does not wish to issue excess fares then they may wish to implement some sort of system to warn people.

But not selling these tickets until they are valid is not acceptable. They should be available for purchase "at any time".

If a company does not like the rules of railway ticketing, then I suggest they don't bid for a rail franchise, and run a bus company instead, as the saying goes, "the bus stop is down the road"