"Pause Doors"

[Railsigns]

Can anyone explain the purpose of these "pause doors" signs, please? I've seen them at Tottenham Hale and Broxbourne stations, on the northbound platforms. They're mounted under the 4, 8 and 12 car stop markers, each one being differently coloured. The sign on the right is placed at the beginning of a platform that has the "pause doors" signs (there is no 12 car stop marker on this particular platform).

 

[tsr]

I presume it is designed to prevent doors from being opened on the wrong side by drivers.

"Pause" (instruction to driver)
Driver looks at arrow
Arrow gives indication of which side needs the doors to be opened on
"Doors" (instruction to driver to open doors)

There are signs at some stations with "Open doors other side" on them, on the wrong side for opening, so I'd assume it's a similar scheme with a different signage system.

 

[Railsigns]

I presume it is designed to prevent doors from being opened on the wrong side by drivers.

I think there must be more to it than that. If the signs are there to prevent the doors being opened on the wrong side, why have them at Tottenham Hale, which is just a simple station with side platforms, exactly the same as the stations before and after? Broxbourne has island platforms, so the doors could be opened on either the left or the right side, but then why have the signs on just the northbound platforms? They'd be equally relevant southbound. And how does having different colours for different stop markers help remind the driver to open the doors on the correct side? And what's the significance of the "Check" sign?

 

[ainsworth74]

Could 'check' be referring to the signal aspect or is there already a sign for that (or not a signal to check)?

 

[starrymarkb]

Is OL Leigh still driving on that side?

 

[Railsigns]

Could 'check' be referring to the signal aspect or is there already a sign for that (or not a signal to check)?

The sign appears to be prompting the driver to check the length of the train before stopping in the platform and it tells the driver what colour of stop marker to look out for.

 

[tsr]

The sign appears to be prompting the driver to check the length of the train before stopping in the platform and it tells the driver what colour of stop marker to look out for.

Perhaps there have been incidents where drivers have stopped at an incorrect position for the length of their train? As for your comment regarding the position of the platforms... I don't have the answer to why the signage should be especially necessary at that location.

 

[A-driver]

Pause for doors and open other side etc are put a locations with a high number of, or high risk of, stop short or wrong side release incidents. It is purely to encourage the driver to actively think through formation and platform side before releasing and to prevent errors through habit/momentary lapse on concentration.

 

[southern442]

There are signs at some stations with "Open doors other side" on them, on the wrong side for opening, so I'd assume it's a similar scheme with a different signage system.

I believe that is for passengers, as at some stations there are unused platforms that may confuse the passengers as to which side to open the doors.

 

[Eagle]

I believe that is for passengers, as at some stations there are unused platforms that may confuse the passengers as to which side to open the doors.

Which was a lot more of a problem in the days of slamdoor stock in the south.

 

[Mojo]

I believe that is for passengers, as at some stations there are unused platforms that may confuse the passengers as to which side to open the doors.

I have seen platforms, or areas with signs stating ''Do not alight here'' which are for customers, however the only signs stating ''Open doors other side'' I have seen are for train staff. Not to say there aren't any of course.

 

[southern442]

I just thought that was the case at Clapham Jn where there is a disused platform opposite the south side of platform 7.

 

[DarloRich]

I have seen platforms, or areas with signs stating ''Do not alight here'' which are for customers, however the only signs stating ''Open doors other side'' I have seen are for train staff. Not to say there aren't any of course.

they still have them at Bow Brickhill on the Marston Vale line. Always raises a smile!

 

[Poolie]

Mind the Step has appeared all along the full length of Seaton Carew platforms! Served by 2 car pacers and a couple of sprinters per day. Would love a train where the full platform were of use!

 

[W230]

I believe that is for passengers, as at some stations there are unused platforms that may confuse the passengers as to which side to open the doors.

Not sure I've seen those ones but the pics in this thread are as A-driver states - an attempt to reduce the number of stop shorts/wrongside door release incidents by prompting the driver to check the train length/platform side on arrival.

 

[jopsuk]

To add to the mystery, the signs at Broxbourne are only on the Down platforms (3 &4), whilst on the Up (1 & 2) all trains now seem to stop at the London end of the platform, regardless of length.

Also, there's a colour coding, with 4 being white on blue (as usual), 8 being black on yellow and 12 (platform 3 at Broxbourne) is white on purple.

 

[O L Leigh]

What is the mystery?

We've had the mantra "pause for the doors" drummed into us for years. It is simply to remind the driver to think for a moment about whether or not the train is correctly positioned along the platform before giving a door release. Various locations, such as Broxbourne and Tottenham Hale on the down, have a history of "stop short and open" incidents, which would be why these signs are appearing here rather than elsewhere.

O L Leigh

 

[edwin_m]

To add to the mystery, the signs at Broxbourne are only on the Down platforms (3 &4), whilst on the Up (1 & 2) all trains now seem to stop at the London end of the platform, regardless of length.

There's your answer. If all trains regardless of length stop in the same place then there is no need to think about where to stop, so no special reminders are needed.

 

[jopsuk]

But unless I'm remebering wrongly, at the very least four car trains on the Up used to stop mid-platform- stopping at the end, especially on the through, means the rear doors are at about the stairs- when ideally it should be the middle sets nearest the stairs.

 

[edwin_m]

But unless I'm remebering wrongly, at the very least four car trains on the Up used to stop mid-platform- stopping at the end, especially on the through, means the rear doors are at about the stairs- when ideally it should be the middle sets nearest the stairs.

Perhaps it has been changed, either to reduce confusion about stopping positions or maybe to even out the loadings a bit so latecomers join at the non-London end? Where are the car stop boards?

 

[O L Leigh]

There's your answer. If all trains regardless of length stop in the same place then there is no need to think about where to stop, so no special reminders are needed.

...and where practical that has been done.

However, you can't realistically send a 4 car train right down to the far end of a 12 car platform at every location.

O L Leigh

 

[A-driver]

The biggest 'risk' on the railway is passengers slipping/tripping/falling and so the industry bodies try to get people off of railway property as quickly as possible by the shortest route. Therefore stop car marks are present in many locations to address this issue.

However...doing that has led to another risk which is stop shorts, especially on suburban DOO commuter routes where there is a real risk of doors off the platform being released and where the problem is made worse by the numerous stock formations used through a single drivers diagram.

A lot of work is done from a drivers point of view by companies to reduce the risk such as training, in cab reminder boards, various techniques etc but it's still a real problem which will always exist whilst humans who are prone to mistakes are driving various lengths of trains into platforms with multiple stopping points.

Many companies weigh up the risk of stop shorts vs the risk of passengers having to walk further and compromise on stopping points. For example, hatfield down slow platform had a huge number of stop short incidents and nobody could work out why. In the end they decided that the best and safest option was to stop everything at the far end despite it being a long way to walk with a 3 car train on an 8 car platform. Other locations like hardly wood have been simplified so 4 stopping points have been merged into 2.

As I say, it all comes down to weighing up the risks.

 

[Lockwood]

Doesn't route knowledge enter into that as well, though?

Watching some of the learner videos on YouTube, where you are shown that you have the 3-aspect colour light signal XY123, followed by Bob's FP Crossing, followed by Dave's FP crossing, then automatic 4-aspect colour light signal XY125, then an advanced warning of a 50 mph limit, then 3-aspect colour light signal QZ301 (controlled by Somewhereton Signal Box)........

I would have thought that with that much detail going in to route knowledge that the drivers would also have knowledge of where to stop for the unit they are driving? (Which I guess would also be traction knowledge?)

 

[A-driver]

Doesn't route knowledge enter into that as well, though?

Watching some of the learner videos on YouTube, where you are shown that you have the 3-aspect colour light signal XY123, followed by Bob's FP Crossing, followed by Dave's FP crossing, then automatic 4-aspect colour light signal XY125, then an advanced warning of a 50 mph limit, then 3-aspect colour light signal QZ301 (controlled by Somewhereton Signal Box)........

I would have thought that with that much detail going in to route knowledge that the drivers would also have knowledge of where to stop for the unit they are driving? (Which I guess would also be traction knowledge?)

It's knowing which length unit you are driving and not so much a case of forgetting or not knowing, but not allowing a seconds loss in concentration to crop up when stopping at a platform. It's not that drivers don't know where tos top at platforms, we all know that, it's just remembering how many coaches you have on at all times and concentrating 100% throughout.

Although there a a few incidents of drivers believing they are in a shorter train than they are for whatever reason, the most common cause is that short lapse of concentration. You know you have an 8 car on and stop everywhere with an 8 car and then a split second sees you aim for the 4 car stops at one station and open the doors. Everyone who does it says that they know exactly what they have done the second their fingers hit those door open buttons.

Other times it is down to habit. For example, you could work a semi fast kings x- peterbourgh train with an 8 car after a number of trips in 4 cars. You leave Finsbury park having stopped correctly and then sort of forget about the 8 cars and slip into repetition of previous 4 car trips. At Stevenage, Hitchin, arlesey and Biggleswade you can't stop short as they are all one stop mark for 4 & 8 car trains. You are aware you have 8 on as you can see them in monitors and mirrors but it doesn't fully register and you run into sandy and stop at the 4 car point purely out of habit based on the past few trips.

It's not a knowledge thing in terms of route knowledge and not exactly a case of not knowing how long the train is or forgetting but more just a mix of habit, brief lapses in concentration etc. I often say win stations related incidents that we can stop at 100+ stations a. Day, 4-5 days a week, up to 9 days without a day off starting and finishing work at all sorts of silly times of day. It would be stupid to believe for a second that you are never going to make a minor mistake once or twice. The issue is that a minor mistake which comes about purely from lack of thought for a split second can lead to a possible safety incident.

I hate saying this as I know people take it the wrong way but it is one of those things that an outsider will see as a stupid thing to do, I mean how can a driver forget how many cars he has on! Same as how can he have opened the doors on the opposite side to the platform...could he not tell that the concreate structure with people standing on it was the platform as opposed to the grass verge the other side! But it's a real problem which you only really see once you have done the job for a while, once boredom sets in, once you start to relax slightly too much. When you stop at station number 91 that day thinking that you are finally on you way home after a 9 days stint looking forward to a few days off. It really is something that you need to experience to appreciate how it can happen.

 

[Lockwood]

Oh, I wasn't trying to make it sound like you guys were being lax or anything.

One thing that Train Sim 2013 (Yes, I know it's just a game!) has in its 377 cab is a slidy thing that lets you select 4, 8 or 12.
I'm guessing that that is modelled after a real device to try and help remind drivers their vehicle length?
Watching one of the anti-SPAD videos, there's a manager saying about how when he used to drive, he'd have thought a DRA was a pointless idea, then after they were in use for a while he thought of them as a Good Thing (TM).
Perhaps a widespread (if not already happening) deployment of "This unit is X coaches" devices in cabs (either manual or tied in to the ontrain systems) would help in this instance as well?
Or even a post-it note that the driver puts up themself?

 

[A-driver]

Oh, I wasn't trying to make it sound like you guys were being lax or anything.

One thing that Train Sim 2013 (Yes, I know it's just a game!) has in its 377 cab is a slidy thing that lets you select 4, 8 or 12.
I'm guessing that that is modelled after a real device to try and help remind drivers their vehicle length?
Watching one of the anti-SPAD videos, there's a manager saying about how when he used to drive, he'd have thought a DRA was a pointless idea, then after they were in use for a while he thought of them as a Good Thing (TM).
Perhaps a widespread (if not already happening) deployment of "This unit is X coaches" devices in cabs (either manual or tied in to the ontrain systems) would help in this instance as well?
Or even a post-it note that the driver puts up themself?

That all exists, some tocs have those slide things in cabs, many drivers use post it notes, write a bit "8" on their schedule cards, have but a4 posters with a bit "8" written on them stuck to the middle of the windscreen etc etc but as I say, you get used to that kind of thing and it looses all meaning after a while. You can drive into a station with a big number "8" staring at you from the middle of he windscreen and still loose concentration for a split second and stop short.

A huge amount of time has gone into addressing his problem but as I say, when you are stopping different length trains at different parts of platforms 100+ times a day, 4-5 times aw eek it is a dead certainty that mistakes will happen.

 

[edwin_m]

a4 posters with a bit "8" written on them stuck to the middle of the windscreen etc etc but as I say, you get used to that kind of thing and it looses all meaning after a while. You can drive into a station with a big number "8" staring at you from the middle of he windscreen and still loose concentration for a split second and stop short.

Not literally in the middle of the windscreen I trust!

I guess those who aren't train drivers (including me) should think about how many times we've missed a traffic light or made similar slip-ups when driving a car, then consider how few mistakes are made in the thousands of signals and stations that are approached each day.

 

[Eagle]

I guess those who aren't train drivers (including me) should think about how many times we've missed a traffic light or made similar slip-ups when driving a car, then consider how few mistakes are made in the thousands of signals and stations that are approached each day.

And even then, your car tends to stay the same size every time you drive it, unlike the trains in question.

 

[Lockwood]

What is the corrective action if you stop short?
Close the doors again and pull forwards, close them and reopen the ones on the platform?
I sometimes see the guard releasing the doors, and sometimes they release "by themselves" while the guard is performing other duties, which I'm guessing is the driver doing it. If it is a station where the guard would release the doors, I'm guessing it is a lot easier to deal with, as you've not pressed the door open button with your tail end hanging out of the station?

And even then, your car tends to stay the same size every time you drive it, unlike the trains in question.

I might have dented an ambulance in a car park a while back, when I had a lapse and thought it steered like my car.
You didn't see it. You can't prove a thing.

 

[A-driver]

Not literally in the middle of the windscreen I trust!

I have seen some who blue tack things like that in the middle if their line of vision. You can still see enough around it. Different drivers have different methods and tools to help reduce these kind if incidents. Obviously there isn't a single solution or else the problem wouldn't exist but each driver has a method and it's down to professionalism to pre-empt problems like this and if you become too used to the methods you use change them for something else.

What is the corrective action if you stop short?
Close the doors again and pull forwards, close them and reopen the ones on the platform?
I sometimes see the guard releasing the doors, and sometimes they release "by themselves" while the guard is performing other duties, which I'm guessing is the driver doing it. If it is a station where the guard would release the doors, I'm guessing it is a lot easier to deal with, as you've not pressed the door open button with your tail end hanging out of the station?

The procedure after an incident it to first of all close the doors up and check no one has actually fallen from the train where it was not on a platform. Obviously if anyone has then considerations need to be made ( for example if someone fell onto an adjacent running line) but you would then need to speak to the signaller to report the incident and confirm if anyone fell from the train before dropping down to the correct point and letting people on and off. Of course the hardest part would probably be the PA annoumemt to the passengers! You would then be met by a manager as soon as practicle (depending on who you are and incident history etc they may decide to terminate the train there and run you empty out the way ('this train will be terminated at xyz due to an operating incident') but it's done on a case by case basis). The manager would need to decide weather you can keep driving or should be taken off of driving duties whilst the incident is fully investigated. Almost certainly you would be tested for drugs and alcohol as a matter of procedure.

As for different ways of doors opening with guards, it is down to the rolling stock and company procedure. Some trains such as 350/450 and some sprinters don't have any door controls on the drivers desk so the guard has to open the doors themselves. Other stock such as 377, 180, 390, 220 etc (think I'm correct with the last 2) only has door release controls on the drivers desk so the driver has to open the doors.

Most companies where a guard opens the doors instruct them to step on the platform to view the train is in the station before putting up a general release which should greatly reduce the risk but where the driver opens them as much as we should check the train is fully in and "pause for doors" there is a great danger of it becoming a reflex action that the train stops and straight away you reach for the door buttons without thinking as much as you should. Incidentally this has also led to a few incidents of drivers stopping at red signals and then releasing doors when not anywhere near a station. This is often a complete case of autopilot/reflex action as the driver often dosnt realise they have done it until they try to take power and realise they don't have interlock!