Patronising LNER inspector.

[melon68]

I had a strange experience with a LNER ticket inspector on Friday night. To cut a long story shortish, he was quite flippant and patronising towards me. All I did was ask him if my connection between trains at Doncaster would be held for me. I was travelling from Leeds to Newark Northgate, the change time was 10 minutes at Doncaster (I had booked an off-peak single, not an advance, on the LNER app). We were 11 minutes late leaving Wakefield W. At this point when he came to check my ticket, the app still showed my connection as valid,

I overheard him saying to some other passengers that there was a nice pub at Doncaster station so those who missed their connection could wait there for the next Newark service, which was an hour later. He accused me of picking on him and using an unpleasant tone of voice as it was "not his fault" as I told him that IMHO the connection should be held as it's the same TOC. I mentioned to him that there's an island platform at Donny with 2 platform faces, so there's no reason why the connecting service would have to depart before our train to avoid it being "blocked in", but he claimed that Northern also use the platform so this was not the case. In the end the connecting service arrived on Platform 1 just after our train on Platform 3, so I made the connection reasonably comfortably as it turned out. (Clearly in the end there were 2 LNER trains in platforms 1 and 3 so he was wrong). Has anybody else had a bad experience with on-train staff recently?

 

[Russel]

I had advance split tickets from Lichfield to Manchester Picc via Crewe a year or two ago and 2 LNWR services were cancelled in a row resulting in me missing my Northern connection at Crewe by 2 hours, the Northern guard came across as rude and somewhat confrontational that I'd boarded his train without checking if I could use my advance ticket for an earlier train with him first.

Reported to Northern and got the usual empty corporate apologia, not that I was expecting anything different.

 

[Flying Snail]

If you are going to travel by train in Britain it's best to accept that trains will not be held for late running connections. There are some rare exceptions but in the vast majority of cases it just doesn't happen.

 

[yorkie]

If you are going to travel by train in Britain it's best to accept that trains will not be held for late running connections. There are some rare exceptions but in the vast majority of cases it just doesn't happen.

If anyone's arrival time is crucial, I agree that any such passenger should go into the 'advanced options' and specify additional interchange time.

However it really is a very unacceptable state of affairs; LNER have a habit of both missing connections and also departing early.

It's all quite depressing to come back to from a visit to somewhere like Czechia, Switzerland etc, where connections are generally maintained wherever practicable (and trains do not depart early or have their doors locked long before the advertised time).

 

[Haywain]

All I did was ask him if my connection between trains at Doncaster would be held for me.

That doesn't appear to be the case:

I told him that IMHO the connection should be held as it's the same TOC. I mentioned to him that there's an island platform at Donny with 2 platform faces, so there's no reason why the connecting service would have to depart before our train to avoid it being "blocked in",

What did you think you would achieve by telling him how the railway should operate?

 

[sh24]

Frustrating, but generally I find trying to tell people how to do their jobs results in a negative outcome.

 

[Iskra]

Frustrating, but generally I find trying to tell people who to do their jobs results in a negative outcome.

Agreed, not very constructive.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I had advance split tickets from Lichfield to Manchester Picc via Crewe a year or two ago and 2 LNWR services were cancelled in a row resulting in me missing my Northern connection at Crewe by 2 hours, the Northern guard came across as rude and somewhat confrontational that I'd boarded his train without checking if I could use my advance ticket for an earlier train with him first.

Reported to Northern and got the usual empty corporate apologia, not that I was expecting anything different.

Yes a Conductor should give good Customer Service at all times.. however(!)...

How would they be expected to know (without spending time to check) that there's been disruption on a different TOC's route which is nowhere near the Northern network? If you had an Advance ticket from Lichfield to Manchester without splitting it, they'd probably realise there'd been a delay- but again I don't blame them questioning your ticket seeing you were 2 hours after your planned departure time.

 

[Retorus]

That doesn't appear to be the case:

What did you think you would achieve by telling him how the railway should operate?

Indeed. There’s always more to the story.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What did you think you would achieve by telling him how the railway should operate?

This was clearly out of frustration, and it's clearly very frustrating when staff, as they occasionally do, make up clearly false excuses for operational decisions rather than either giving the real reason or simply declining to give one. Though I do find mostly that staff are honest about such things if you ask and are obviously knowledgeable, but there are some who really take exception to those who have a bit of background knowledge. The best example of those I've come across are Paddington gateline, who unlike Euston* try to convince people that Realtime Trains has no clue what is going on with platforms.

Having said that, rationally, the only way you will ever get anywhere in this sort of situation is a retrospective complaint.

* Now the shouty men are gone as they're unnecessary now the departure board is back in the correct place, the gateline staff, for all they are criticised, are happy for people who clearly know what the platform is to wait on the ramp for the train to be displayed.

 

[AlterEgo]

I overheard him saying to some other passengers that there was a nice pub at Doncaster station so those who missed their connection could wait there for the next Newark service, which was an hour later. He accused me of picking on him and using an unpleasant tone of voice as it was "not his fault" as I told him that IMHO the connection should be held as it's the same TOC.

That's clearly not within his control though. What's he supposed to say to that?

Much as staff can be offhand, that sort of interaction isn't entirely fair on the guard who was clearly trying to be helpful by telling other passengers about a nicer place to wait out the delay. Connections aren't habitually held on the UK railway and whether it's the same TOC or not should really make no difference to the decision to hold as it's all the same network anyway.

Complaints about connections not being held or operational foibles are really best made to customer relations after the fact.

 

[Russel]

Yes a Conductor should give good Customer Service at all times.. however(!)...

How would they be expected to know (without spending time to check) that there's been disruption on a different TOC's route which is nowhere near the Northern network? If you had an Advance ticket from Lichfield to Manchester without splitting it, they'd probably realise there'd been a delay- but again I don't blame them questioning your ticket seeing you were 2 hours after your planned departure time.

Sorry, but no, I can understand them asking questions, but being rude and confrontational is unacceptable in any customer facing role.

Unfortunately, I'm seeing more and more rail staff who really shouldn't be in customer facing roles.

 

[greyman42]

He accused me of picking on him and using an unpleasant tone of voice as it was "not his fault" as I told him that IMHO the connection should be held as it's the same TOC.

Holding the connection is just not practical in most situations.

 

[melon68]

Holding the connection is just not practical in most situations.

I guess it depends a lot on the operational configuration at the station, in this case there was a positive outcome and I'm probably making something out of nothing. It was his attitude as a customer-facing employee that I found most disagreeable!

 

[melon68]

Indeed. There’s always more to the story.

Fair point, Doncaster's always been a good station to change between ECML trains going in the same direction as it has island platforms. Unlike some!

 

[KNN]

I guess it depends a lot on the operational configuration at the station

It's more about the knock on effect of delaying the connecting train. It could push several people into a missed connection somewhere else so do you hold their trains too? It snowballs very quickly, before you know it the whole timetable is out of synch to prevent your hour delay.

 

[PupCuff]

Personally, from the account given, I think this is an example of unrealistic expectations of railway staff. The Train Manager sounds as though they've followed good practice in calming the situation by empathising with other passengers about the delay and communicating with them in a calm and reasoned manner that recognises that it's a rubbish situation that frustrates everyone and the standard solution is to - to borrow the phrase - 'go down The Winchester and wait for it all to blow over'.

I told him that IMHO the connection should be held as it's the same TOC. I mentioned to him that there's an island platform at Donny with 2 platform faces, so there's no reason why the connecting service would have to depart before our train to avoid it being "blocked in", but he claimed that Northern also use the platform so this was not the case. In the end the connecting service arrived on Platform 1 just after our train on Platform 3, so I made the connection reasonably comfortably as it turned out. (Clearly in the end there were 2 LNER trains in platforms 1 and 3 so he was wrong). Has anybody else had a bad experience with on-train staff recently?

And then the next passenger they've spoken to has given them a lecture on a problem they neither created nor have any power at all to solve.

"he was wrong" - no, sometimes connections which look like they aren't going to be made just end up working out. Same in any other country which has trains.

Its frustrating when you're going to be an hour late, we've all been there, no doubt including the Train Manager on their days off. Pop a complaint in about the delay, you'll get some ticket compensation and if you don't cheese off the guy in customer relations dealing with the complaint they'll probably be willing to proactively flag any recurring connection issue to the performance team who can change this stuff. Train Managers can deal with lots of stuff 'on the day' but they aren't a one-colleague complaints department.

 

[blimmo]

It's all quite depressing to come back to from a visit to somewhere like Czechia, Switzerland etc, where connections are generally maintained wherever practicable

And (in Czechia at least) stations where a train won't wait for connections for whatever reason are even highlighted on the live information page.

 

[185]

I see the TM going from friendly & discussing the pub with the first passengers to accusing a passenger of speaking in a condescending tone with the second. Whilst rudeness by the employee isn't acceptable... nor is it by the customer.

Be polite, get polite back.

 

[Starmill]

In general, connecting trains are not held. I do not necessarily agree with it, but in general it's the status quo.

Luckily, there are certain stations where there are exceptions, for example the Sudbury train will often wait for up to 5 minutes at Marks Tey, especially if it's a down train that's coming, and the Aldershot train will often wait at Ascot, again more likely for a down train. The Looe train will also usually wait for a short time at Liskeard for any mainline trains. However these a) don't hold true in all situations, generally if the turnaround time at the other end of the line is exceeded they won't wait, because then people waiting at the other end risk missing their connection and b) they are pretty uncommon examples.

I would be surprised to see any connection held at Doncaster except for the last service of the night to somewhere. That doesn't mean never, but... If the next service is 60 minutes later, I think the most likely response would be to use that if you asked for a connection to be held.

 

[yorkie]

I see the TM going from friendly & discussing the pub with the first passengers to accusing a passenger of speaking in a condescending tone with the second. Whilst rudeness by the employee isn't acceptable... nor is it by the customer.

Be polite, get polite back.

Employees are held to higher standards than customers.

If a customer is impolite, an employee still should not be rude back.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

I would be surprised to see any connection held at Doncaster except for the last service of the night to somewhere.

LNER will not usually hold the last train of the night, IME the normal response is to provide taxis for anyone who has missed it because their connecting train was late.

Employees are held to higher standards than customers.

If a customer is impolite, an employee still should not be rude back.

I don't believe the employee was particularly rude; telling someone that they are "using an unpleasant tone of voice" is pointing out their behaviour; similar to "please don't shout at me", it can sometimes make people stop and think about how they're behaving.
Unfortunately in the modern world many people believe that if someone tells them to stop behaving badly, or is unable to give them everything they want, then the person in question is "rude" "unhelpful" etc.
IMO kudos to the staff member for being honest enough to say there was no chance of the train being held and for suggesting a pleasant way of spending the wait for the next train!

 

[LocoGuy]

Not sure if my thought process is right on this and happy to be corrected but surely if 1 train is running 11 minutes late and liable for potential TDAs, why would they delay a 2nd train and make that possibly liable too??

 

[Travelmonkey]

Delays happen its a risk of traveling on the uk network although it doesn't hurt to ask (I asked if a voyager was gonna have a special stop at my station due to a canclled train) XC control initally said no but then added in the call. it won't be appropriate for all services worst to worst at least for you doncaster has facilities to make waiting for the next train more pleasant. it seems takes 2 to tango the fact he was able to offer satisfactory advice to others on connection to kill the time means it's a point of knowlage. next time brush it off get a coffee or a pint and remember to claim back your delay repay.

 

[Travelmonkey]

LNER will not usually hold the last train of the night, IME the normal response is to provide taxis for anyone who has missed it because their connecting train was late.

That's more to the railway duty of care to fullfill the contract of getting you too your end destination (or in rare cases hotel overnight) either way it will cost the railway one way or another.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

That's more to the railway duty of care to fullfill the contract of getting you too your end destination (or in rare cases hotel overnight) either way it will cost the railway one way or another.

Yes, definitely. The point is that if they won't hold the last one they're not going to hold one during the day.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Yes, definitely. The point is that if they won't hold the last one they're not going to hold one during the day.

At best you may get a special stop order placed on a passing express but even then that is rare.