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Patrick McLoughlin on Sunday Politics today

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trainophile

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Mr McLoughlin was interviewed by Andrew Neil about general transport matters, which included some coverage regarding the ECML situation.

He stated that in general, even at peak times Virgin services to and from Euston are only filled 54-56% of capacity. Although I am not a user of these services, I find this amazing. I missed the start of the conversation so there may have been additional facts, but that was the gist of it anyway.

Thinking about it, perhaps if First Class is only (e.g.) 30% filled, that would average out over the whole train as an under capacity service, given the disproportionate number of First Class coaches, but not much consolation for those crammed into standard class.

Or am I missing something?
 
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Wath Yard

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It's been mentioned several times on here that peak VWC services aren't crammed. It is the post peak trains, used by people who can't afford or are unwilling to pay £200+ for a journey to London, and Friday evening/Sunday services, used by students and people who work away from home, that are the busiest. The official passengers in excess if capacity figures back this up.
 

route:oxford

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He stated that in general, even at peak times Virgin services to and from Euston are only filled 54-56% of capacity. Although I am not a user of these services, I find this amazing. I missed the start of the conversation so there may have been additional facts, but that was the gist of it anyway.

I'm not surprised really - the phrase "to and from" is a bit of a giveaway.

Whilst departures between, say, 5.15pm & 6.15pm may be full to capacity - I'm not convinced that arrivals will also be full to capacity.

Also, there was no specification there over which segment the capacity was measured. Is it an overall average of capacity on the full diagram between Euston & Central or between Euston & first set-down?

Never trust the statistics of a politician or a union.
 

ivanhoe

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It's been mentioned several times on here that peak VWC services aren't crammed. It is the post peak trains, used by people who can't afford or are unwilling to pay £200+ for a journey to London, and Friday evening/Sunday services, used by students and people who work away from home, that are the busiest. The official passengers in excess if capacity figures back this up.

Trouble is what is the Business Solution? Is it to cut services? Or indeed is it just as cost effective to leave things as they are, rather than cut the peak premium?
 

All Line Rover

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It's been mentioned several times on here that peak VWC services aren't crammed. It is the post peak trains, used by people who can't afford or are unwilling to pay £200+ for a journey to London, and Friday evening/Sunday services, used by students and people who work away from home, that are the busiest. The official passengers in excess if capacity figures back this up.

For those of you who don't use Virgin Trains, here's the fares structure we have to contend with (fares on the left are Standard Class, fares on the right are First Class):

MANCHESTER>LONDON WEDNESDAY MORNING:
£108.50/£202.00 Manchester [07:00] to London [09:00]
£108.50/£202.00 Manchester [07:15] to London [09:23]
£108.50/£202.00 Manchester [07:35] to London [09:52]
£108.50/£202.00 Manchester [07:55] to London [10:04]
£067.50/£134.50 Manchester [08:15] to London [10:23]
£067.50/£134.50 Manchester [08:35] to London [10:42]
£067.50/£134.50 Manchester [08:55] to London [11:04]
£067.50/£134.50 Manchester [09:15] to London [11:23]
£076.30/£051.00 Manchester [09:35] to London [11:42] (OFF-PEAK)
£034.00/£051.00 Manchester [09:55] to London [12:04] (OFF-PEAK)
£019.00/£051.00 Manchester [10:15] to London [12:23] (OFF-PEAK)
£012.00/£038.00 Manchester [10:35] to London [12:42]

LONDON>MANCHESTER WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON:
£026.00/£065.00 London [14:40] to Manchester [16:49] (OFF-PEAK)
£076.30/£065.00 London [15:00] to Manchester [17:07] (OFF-PEAK)
£108.50/£134.50 London [15:20] to Manchester [17:28]
£108.50/£134.50 London [15:40] to Manchester [17:49]
£108.50/£134.50 London [16:00] to Manchester [18:07]
£108.50/£134.50 London [16:20] to Manchester [18:28]
£108.50/£134.50 London [16:40] to Manchester [18:49]
£108.50/£134.50 London [17:00] to Manchester [19:07]
£108.50/£134.50 London [17:20] to Manchester [19:28]
£108.50/£134.50 London [17:40] to Manchester [19:49]
£108.50/£134.50 London [18:00] to Manchester [20:07]
£026.00/£065.00 London [18:20] to Manchester [20:28]
£026.00/£065.00 London [18:40] to Manchester [20:49]
£076.30/£051.00 London [19:00] to Manchester [21:07] (OFF-PEAK)
£076.30/£051.00 London [19:20] to Manchester [21:28] (OFF-PEAK)
£019.00/£051.00 London [19:40] to Manchester [21:57] (OFF-PEAK)

The Off-Peak services highlighted in red are those that are so busy, Virgin don't bother releasing any Standard Class Advance fares. No matter how far you book in advance, the above Advance fares are the cheapest you'll get (unless you have a Railcard).

As you can see, the fares structure makes no sense whatsoever. For the Manchester>London services, who would pay more than £100 to travel in Standard Class, or more than £200 to travel in First Class, just so they can arrive in London before 10am? The answer - very few. On the [07:55] departure which I regularly travel on, Standard Class rarely exceeds 50% capacity, and First Class rarely exceeds 20% capacity. The only season Standard Class on this service is 'relatively' busy is because it is full of Railcard holders using Off-Peak tickets (like myself) and non-Railcard holders travelling from North Wales whose Off-Peak tickets are valid on this service.

For the London>Manchester services, how can Virgin claim that the [15:20] departure is a 'peak' service?! :roll: Standard Class passengers have to wait for three hours before they can travel on a service with reasonably-priced fares - the [18:20] or [18:40] - and these are the only two London>Manchester services which I think Virgin have priced correctly. The [18:00] departure is, unsurprisingly, incredibly quiet in Standard Class, as who in their right mind is going to pay £108.50 to travel on that service instead of £26 to depart 20 minutes later on the [18:20] service?

Virgin have plenty of Standard Class Advance tiers they could offer - £26, £34 and £67 - yet instead they opt for the shambolic fares structure above. Why aren't the prices as follows?
£026.00 London [15:20] to Manchester [17:28]
£034.00 London [15:40] to Manchester [17:49]
£067.00 London [16:00] to Manchester [18:07]
£067.00 London [16:20] to Manchester [18:28]
£108.50 London [16:40] to Manchester [18:49]
£108.50 London [17:00] to Manchester [19:07]
£108.50 London [17:20] to Manchester [19:28]
£067.00 London [17:40] to Manchester [19:49]
£034.00 London [18:00] to Manchester [20:07]
£026.00 London [18:20] to Manchester [20:28]
£026.00 London [18:40] to Manchester [20:49]
This would be a little more down to earth.

As others have mentioned, capacity (in terms of number of seats occupied) isn't really a problem on ICWC services. The rammed trains you see on the news are as a result of Virgin's insane pricing structure, rather than rampant, ever increasing demand. It's questionable whether the 11-car Pendolinos would even have been needed if Virgin had a sensible pricing structure, especially if they had taken the decision to convert one of the four First Class carriages to Standard Class.

An interesting comparison is to look at First Great Western's pricing structure. (I know Bristol>London is around 100 miles whereas Manchester>London is around 150 miles, but if you scale the fares up by 50% they are still much cheaper than Virgin Trains). Whether First would have adopted this when operating ICWC I can't say, but it does show that the company the public seems to hate, does make some sensible decisions.

BRISTOL>LONDON WEDNESDAY MORNING:
£093.50/£153.50 Bristol [07:00] to London [08:44]
£093.50/£153.50 Bristol [07:30] to London [09:14]
£050.50/£066.00 Bristol [08:00] to London [09:44]
£026.00/£052.50 Bristol [08:30] to London [10:15] (OFF-PEAK)
£018.50/£035.50 Bristol [09:00] to London [10:39] (OFF-PEAK)
£015.50/£035.50 Bristol [09:30] to London [11:14] (OFF-PEAK)
£023.50/£035.50 Bristol [10:00] to London [11:38] (SUPER-OFF-PEAK)
£010.00/£027.50 Bristol [10:30] to London [12:14] (SUPER-OFF-PEAK)

LONDON>BRISTOL WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON:
£010.00/£027.50 London [14:30] to Bristol [16:15] (SUPER-OFF-PEAK)
£013.00/£027.50 London [15:00] to Bristol [16:39] (SUPER-OFF-PEAK)
£015.50/£035.50 London [15:30] to Bristol [17:15] (OFF-PEAK)
£023.50/£044.00 London [16:00] to Bristol [17:41] (OFF-PEAK)
£040.50/£066.00 London [16:30] to Bristol [18:14] (OFF-PEAK)
£050.50/£084.50 London [17:00] to Bristol [18:44]
£050.50/£084.50 London [17:30] to Bristol [19:12]
£050.50/£084.50 London [18:00] to Bristol [19:43]
£050.50/£084.50 London [18:30] to Bristol [20:13]
£040.50/£066.00 London [19:00] to Bristol [20:44] (OFF-PEAK)
£023.50/£044.00 London [19:30] to Bristol [21:15] (SUPER-OFF-PEAK)
£013.00/£027.50 London [20:00] to Bristol [21:44] (SUPER-OFF-PEAK)

So whereas VT peak travellers pay over £100 for a single ticket, FGW peak travellers pay less than this to make a return journey! In fact, VT peak travellers pay more to travel in Standard Class than FGW peak travellers pay to travel in First Class. And whilst FGW off-peak travellers can arrive in London just after 10am for a reasonable price, VT off-peak travellers have to wait until after noon! Absolutely bonkers.

Whilst FGW's reasonably-priced tickets have limited availability, and the closer you get to the time of travel, the closer they get to VT's prices, at least reasonably-priced tickets actually exist! FGW also has the added bonus of their Off-Peak tickets being valid on a wide range of trains, compared to VT's Off-Peak tickets being valid on a very narrow range of trains.
 
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northwichcat

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It's been mentioned several times on here that peak VWC services aren't crammed. It is the post peak trains, used by people who can't afford or are unwilling to pay £200+ for a journey to London, and Friday evening/Sunday services, used by students and people who work away from home, that are the busiest.

Indeed. Virgin have introduced cheap flexible VT only tickets for local journeys north of Crewe/Stoke which can on Manchester-London services in an attempt to fill up spare capacity.

The ITV Tonight program featured this a while back showing hardly anyone going for the last evening peak train from Euston to Manchester and hundreds going for the first off-peak train after the evening peak.
 

Wath Yard

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Trouble is what is the Business Solution? Is it to cut services? Or indeed is it just as cost effective to leave things as they are, rather than cut the peak premium?

It would be bizarre and a PR disaster for any TOC to cut peak train services. The solution is to manage demand better. How that is done probably isn't particularly easy as obviously attracting too many passengers onto peak services would also be a problem, but that's why TOCs exist - the private sector is supposedly expert in this sort of thing.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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For those of you who don't use Virgin Trains, here's the fares structure we have to contend with (fares on the left are Standard Class, fares on the right are First Class):

I don't recognise these fares. The SVR is currently £73.20 which I would have thought is the "lead" off-peak fare on the route.
Your post reads as though everybody wants/is able to book in advance which is not true.
This is a major walk-on route with wallets/expenses to match.
Manchester is also 185-189 miles from Euston depending on route, nearly double Bristol-Paddington at 118, and fewer stops are made.

However I don't disagree that the fares structure is absurd.
With the 23-month VT management contract with DfT taking the revenue risk, it's an ideal time to experiment with the fares.
But I don't think fiddling with advance quotas is the way to go.
Better walk-up options are what's required.
 

dstrat

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We simply should not see £100+ single standard fares on the rail network. £100 single from Manchester to London? Simply ridiculous.

The train shouldn't be 'competing' with cars - it should provided a much cheaper alternative, but so often...not the case.
 

All Line Rover

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I don't recognise these fares. The SVR is currently £73.20 which I would have thought is the "lead" off-peak fare on the route.

All of the fares quoted are Advance fares. These prices are generally available until 6pm the evening before travel (if not later), so they are a fair reflection of the prices available.

The £74.20 'Off-Peak' Return (rising to £77.30 from January) is not a good comparison - it isn't valid on arrivals into Euston until around 11:30, and isn't valid on departures from Euston until around 19:00. That doesn't suit the majority of the travelling public, but nor does the price of the Anytime Return (over £300 from January)!

Bristol>London, whilst not the same distance as Manchester>London, is a good reflection of FGW's sensible, demand-based pricing system that operates across the rest of their network. Such a system also operates on East Midlands Trains and, to an extent, East Coast.

Virgin adopt a fares structure of extortionately expensive Advance fares plastered across most of their peak trains, often for hours at a time, followed by huge price drops on Off-Peak trains, which creates the capacity problems you see on the news.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But I don't think fiddling with advance quotas is the way to go.
Better walk-up options are what's required.

Advance fares are needed as they are very effective at helping to spread demand, as demonstrated by FGW, EMT and EC. VT just aren't using them effectively. But it is fair to say that walk-up fares can also be used to spread demand, as reflected by the Super-Off-Peak and Off-Peak tickets available, once again, on FGW, EMT and EC!
 

radamfi

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EC manage to offer reasonably priced Advance fares during peak hours. These fares mean I actually travel at times that I would have not considered during BR days, and for trips to the North West I often go through Leeds at peak times.
 

All Line Rover

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EC manage to offer reasonably priced Advance fares during peak hours. These fares mean I actually travel at times that I would have not considered during BR days, and for trips to the North West I often go through Leeds at peak times.

Indeed - on a weekday morning it's £22.60 for London to Leeds (providing you book sufficiently in advance), compared to £108.50 for London to Manchester!
 

Greeby

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How about bringing the SOR and FOR down to a third, or better still a quarter of the weekly season, in the same way that SDR/FDR is. Using current season rates, it would still be pricey, but at least would be dragged out of the triple digit mark
 
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