bb21
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They are liable for compensation. It doesn't mean they are responsible for such incidents. Two very different concepts.
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Pathetic Thameslink part 427
- Thread starter Mutant Lemming
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They are liable for compensation. It doesn't mean they are responsible for such incidents. Two very different concepts.
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RailUK Forums
And the only other train to run until the Brighton train mentioned was another West Hampstead starter.
When there's major disruption it's wise not to announce trains until they are actually on their way. IMO the screens were being used correctly, which doesn't happen everywhere.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
No but I do blame them for deciding to tip slow train passengers out at open stations rather than covered ones.
Caring about the local stations passengers is alien to whoever seems to operate Thameslink.
One of my first whines about them was letting local passengers wait nearly two hours in freezing conditions - threatening to call the police if we complained too loudly while still running plenty of fast trains.
They run it for their own benefit - their service recovery has always been get the trains back on time first - passengers second and it hasn't changed.
So, amid all the problems of getting paths where they are competing with EM and possibly delayed/parked freight services, they are expected to look at the weather, see how long the station canopy is and whether the number of passengers will fit under it. Had you considered whether they might have more important issues to deal with.
Just look at the numbers of passengers carried from location outside the TFL area compared with those between the local stations. That's why twice as many trains, (many of them 12-car) are needed.
This thread of yours seems like a rant about TL not giving preference to metro travellers, (which coincidentally include you). I presume that you rarely (or even never) travel in from the outer stations bacause this seems very much like a rant about your personal experience. Those travelling from outside the travelcard area have little choice but to use the mainline services. Within the TfL area there are usually many choices which (unsurprisingly) will be crowded when there are TL problems but at least they are there.
By the way, all TOCs are run for profit. That's the idea of a commercial company. Providing service some of the time is necessary for their contract.
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EM2
Established Member
If they don't get trains back on time as quickly as possible, they delay more passengers for longer, and those passengers would complain even more.
The big cheeses who run TL were down on the ground threatening to call the police or the small number of front line staff with no power to do anything about the situation who were feeling vulnerable or abused or perhaps under threat?
Thameslink don't have fare paying passengers - the fare income all goes to DfT. So the cause/effect link you think there ought to be, doesn't exist.
Tho I agree it's likely there was someone near the gateline (potentially hiding in a box somewhere)
And for the guy about station information - use phone live timetable apps.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
I'm ever so sorry - apparently it is just all the whingeing passengers who are to blame and the ever so wonderful Thameslink are doing an ever so wonderful job in extremely difficult circumstances.
The line and it's environs must just have an undue percentage of bitching passengers as that can be the only reason they come bottom of the performance charts according to all you apologists.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/who-we-are/how-we-work/performance/public-performance-measure/
The line and it's environs must just have an undue percentage of bitching passengers as that can be the only reason they come bottom of the performance charts according to all you apologists.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/who-we-are/how-we-work/performance/public-performance-measure/
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Yes they do. the fare income all goes into the Thameslink bank account. There is a periodic offset cash balancing with the DfT, taking into account their ALLOWABLE costs (not the un-allowable ones). That's how such contracts work.
Service recovery by ignoring service provision whilst doing so is part of the contract. That's how the DfT framed it in financial terms. A more competent operator might have questioned it, and the DfT might even have hoped that a more competent potential operator would actually point out to them the poor aspects of the specification - some others do, and the advice can be gratefully taken. But, depending on who is top banana at the DfT that week, they can also feel that bottom bidder trumps everything.
Yes, because what is their responsibility is the time taken to RECOVER from such day-to-day incidents. Many here seem to think that if some non-operator incident happens, it can then be used to justify not bothering about punctuality for the rest of the day, on a "not my fault" basis. The whole ides behind making it all an operator responsibility is to encourage the resumption of normal service as promptly as possible. Franchisees know the numbers and what proportion of such incidents typically arise over a year, and allow for it. If they over-tight-schedule crews, or under-schedule turnround times, they cannot claim for the rest of the day "knock, on problems, mate, nuffin' so I could do about it".
The first trespass type incident that I recall a TOC to be held responsible for was very unusual, although I was not on duty to see it, -but read the Control log. A man travelling on a northbound west coast sleeper managed to climb out through the coach door onto the side/end of a coach. He then tried to climb onto the roof but was electrocuted. I think that the train was stopped at Hartford for the body to be removed. Perhaps a forum member may remember the date of this incident, I think it may have been mid 90's
The Box Photter
Member
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- 24 Mar 2009
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- 592
Oh do shut up.
If you live north of St Albans you've no realistic alternative way of getting home (or to work) other than Thameslink.
My heart bleeds for the poor inhabitants of West Hampstead, Cricklewood, Hendon and Kentish Town marooned in the barren wastes of St Pancras International, not knowing when they'll be able to get on a train for their gruelling 10 or 20 minute journey.
Do you know how frustrating it is to get to St Pancras and be told that the train you're already on and need to get you to Harlington, Leagreave or Flitwick will now be running non-stop from St Pancras to Bedford?
You might be surprised to hear that TfL operates a comprehensive network of omnibus routes from central London to other parts of ... London.
Stop whining and get the bus. Whilst you're wringing your hands on a damp platform and whinging at Thameslink staff, you could have caught a nice warm and dry bus. Leave the trains for passengers who really need them.
This doesn't mean I support how Thameslink is run either. They're an incompetent shower and a bunch of money-grabbing shysters who shouldn't be allowed to run a bath, let alone a railway.
Failed Unit
Established Member
What is the official detour north of St Albans? they send you over to Great Northern understand. Turf you off at Hitchin (for Luton). Then i understand you are on your own. I assume same process for Bedford just evicted further north.
But yes let's take Mill Hill Broadway. Tube and bus is at least frequent compared to what I hear from passengers heading between Hatfield and St Albans. (But no one has told the bus companies)
But yes let's take Mill Hill Broadway. Tube and bus is at least frequent compared to what I hear from passengers heading between Hatfield and St Albans. (But no one has told the bus companies)
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Can I suggest that you actually READ the responses given to your rant, possibly a couple of times, and actually understand what they say. I see NO apologists or anyone saying how wonderful ThamesLink is; what I do see is people explaining why things have to happen in "the bigger picture" and not in your apparently very narrow minded and "me, me, me" view.
Please understand that the railway is not there JUST for you, but for everyone. Remember that expecting them to put YOU first may well affect 200 passengers further away, with even greater delays.
The Box Photter
Member
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- 592
They tell us to use EMT (no good if the lines are blocked by trespasser/suicide/power failure) or that our tickets will be accepted on LUL, Southern and London Buses (no good if you live outside London).
Alternatively, we could go from Euston on LM to Bletchley and then all squeeze onto the last 2 car 150 Sprinter on the Marston Vale line at around 1800 to Bedford. Problem is that there are no buses from Bedford to Flitwick, Harlington or Leagrave after around 1800, so that's a 10+ mile walk or a taxi.
Most regulars either sit it out or use GN services to Hitchin/Hatfield and hope they can get on the UNO bus to St Albans or Arriva bus to Luton (assuming the UNO and Arriva bus drivers will accept the ticket). You can go to Arlesey (it's only 10 miles from there to Flitwick) but there's no scheduled bus service, so get ready for a meaty taxi fare (assuming you can get a local taxi to pick you up from the station).
I can see how passengers from Cricklewood, Kentish Town, Hendon, West Hampstead and Mill Hill might fear being stranded in the barren wastes of St Pancras International. But, if I were in their position, I'd already have worked out an alternative route home for when Thameslink goes pop (which it does with monotonous regularity). At worst it might mean a tube, a bus and a short, brisk, healthy 10 minute walk, but at least there are viable alternatives.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
You conveniently leave out Mill Hill and Borehamwood - of course there are buses from both but you would need to take two or three or four even.
While I concede it is important to keep the outer limits well served when you get 5 or 6 fasts and a 47 minute gap for a local then am sure even you would whine - I know I should just accept that despite paying for a 20 minute train journey I should just stop whining and accept catching two (or three or four even) buses and take six or seven times longer to travel to or from work for a journey I have paid for to do in 20.
As for shutting up because you tell me too I'm afraid that isn't going to happen - if you don't like what I post you have the option to ignore it or you could see if the mods will delete the post.
You also seem to neglect that many passengers both from inner and outer suburban points use West Hampstead and Kentish Town as an interchange with other lines.
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So exactly which TL station are you expecting to travel from and where is your actual destination?
AndyY
Member
For the points made:
1. lack of staff in St. Pancras ticket office - I passed through in front of the ticket office this morning at about 08:00 and only 1 window was open and there was a large queue, so may be a problem. That said, people normally buy their season tickets towards end of the year?
2. lack of information when things go wrong - Definitely a problem, trains would just get delayed and then completely disappear off the board without cancellation, and then sometimes just suddenly materialise out of thin air. When I used the telephone on the platform at Kentish Town station to find out what is going on, more often than not I found yourself talking to somebody from India who does not know that Hendon is northbound from Kentish Town.
3. metro services - I definitely find that they take second place compared to the long distance services. To be honest, they are better than a couple of years ago, when Sunday metro services were just getting cancelled and they would not slow down the long distance trains so that those living in MIL, ELS, RDT can get home (I understand that those who get off at CRI, HEN have more options. I cannot really blame them as season tickets are much more expensive outside the travelcard zones so they are right to prioritise the long distance trains. Just counting my blessings that I am paying £1852 pa instead of £3380 pa if I lived 2 stops further on.
4. delays - It has reduced a lot since start of this year. Last year it was so bad that I was considering moving away. That said, trains are still being cancelled. Last night, there were no trains from KTN for nearly 30 minutes after the 19:44 and this morning the 07:33 southbound from ELS was cancelled.
1. lack of staff in St. Pancras ticket office - I passed through in front of the ticket office this morning at about 08:00 and only 1 window was open and there was a large queue, so may be a problem. That said, people normally buy their season tickets towards end of the year?
2. lack of information when things go wrong - Definitely a problem, trains would just get delayed and then completely disappear off the board without cancellation, and then sometimes just suddenly materialise out of thin air. When I used the telephone on the platform at Kentish Town station to find out what is going on, more often than not I found yourself talking to somebody from India who does not know that Hendon is northbound from Kentish Town.
3. metro services - I definitely find that they take second place compared to the long distance services. To be honest, they are better than a couple of years ago, when Sunday metro services were just getting cancelled and they would not slow down the long distance trains so that those living in MIL, ELS, RDT can get home (I understand that those who get off at CRI, HEN have more options. I cannot really blame them as season tickets are much more expensive outside the travelcard zones so they are right to prioritise the long distance trains. Just counting my blessings that I am paying £1852 pa instead of £3380 pa if I lived 2 stops further on.
4. delays - It has reduced a lot since start of this year. Last year it was so bad that I was considering moving away. That said, trains are still being cancelled. Last night, there were no trains from KTN for nearly 30 minutes after the 19:44 and this morning the 07:33 southbound from ELS was cancelled.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
While I understand that the outlying stations have less alternatives I do find it arrogant of those people who expect passengers from Radlett, Borehamwood and Mill Hill to take 2 or 3 buses vastly increasing their journey time when it only takes one or two of those 5 or 6 trains that run fast to make an extra call or two.
It's basically saying catch buses and take an extra hour or more to get home so that we can save 8 or 9 minutes on our journey home - bloody cheek when you think about it.
It's basically saying catch buses and take an extra hour or more to get home so that we can save 8 or 9 minutes on our journey home - bloody cheek when you think about it.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Ok i will bite my on the alternatives for 2 of the stations mentioned.
Mill hill Broadway - 1 bus
221 with connections to the underground at Edgware and Mill Hill East and national rail at New Southgate.
Elsetree and Borehamwood - 1 bus
107 with connections to the boot underground at Edgware and national rail at new Barnet.
Maybe many others. Doesnt help people travelling from the north but definitely not multiple buses. Not sure how rammed they are either but again sure they are better options then Hatfield- St Albans or hitchin- Luton. I also know the bus isn't quick as I have used them both.
Not saying how GTR operates the service is acceptable it isn't. Just highlighting the options exist inside the M25. Not sure about radlet never needed to travel there.
Mill hill Broadway - 1 bus
221 with connections to the underground at Edgware and Mill Hill East and national rail at New Southgate.
Elsetree and Borehamwood - 1 bus
107 with connections to the boot underground at Edgware and national rail at new Barnet.
Maybe many others. Doesnt help people travelling from the north but definitely not multiple buses. Not sure how rammed they are either but again sure they are better options then Hatfield- St Albans or hitchin- Luton. I also know the bus isn't quick as I have used them both.
Not saying how GTR operates the service is acceptable it isn't. Just highlighting the options exist inside the M25. Not sure about radlet never needed to travel there.
Radlett, (which has far fewer passengers than most other stations inward of Luton, e.g. less than one sixth of the St Albans season ticket holders), is also the only station mentioned that is outside the TfL zones. Most of the TfL zone stations have a far higher number of commuters on open Oyster cards.
It does have the route 398 (3 buses each in the am and pm peaks) to Bushey station and Watford centre; and route 602 (5 buses am peak and 4 buses pm peak to/from Watford Junction station forecourt respectively). Of course, not that fast and maybe crowded, but then in times of problems the fast trains are far from empty.
We still havent heard about which stations that the OP uses and has all these difficulties at.
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AndyY
Member
Other than 221, 240 also goes to Edgware. In addition, 114, 251, 302 also go to Burnt Oak to connect with the Northern line. It is not practical to take 221 to Southgate as it takes too long.
Other than that, 292 also goes to Edgware, using a longer route.
But in reality, there are only 2 buses running every 15 minutes to Edgware (each with capacity up to about 80 people?), and they are already busy enough during rush hour anyway even without railway incidents.
Once I got to the station for the 06:47 train to find that it had been cancelled with no idea when the next train would be, I could not get on the 107 to Edgware and barely squeezed into the 107 going in the other direction.
During another power cable incident, I got to the station at 07:20 to find queues stretching all the way round the station square. I gave up going to work that day.
Options may exist outside of rush hour for for ELS, but forget it if incidents occur during rush hour.
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