Passport checks between France and Italy

[radamfi]

I got the Paris - Milan Artesia TGV train on Sunday and the French Douane came through between the last stop before Modane and Modane, checked all passports and luggage of black passengers, and one of them got kicked off the train at Modane. Then there was a full passport check by the Italian police at the first stop in Italy, causing a 20 minute delay as the train didn't depart until they were done.

Is this normal? Surely this isn't supposed to happen because of the Schengen Agreement?

 

[Schnellzug]

I expect either or both of them would plead "National Security" or one of the other usual euphemisms, but it sounds very much like just an excuse for a bit of racism; perhaps they felt that they weren't getting enough "illegal immigrants" they could kick around, so they decided to go find a few.

 

[Harlesden]

Ssimilar thing happens when I return from Kingston Jamaica. At customs most of the white passengers are waved through while most of the black people get stopped (there are many white Jamaicans hence my use of the adjectives)

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, it is permitted under the terms of the Schengen Agreement and can take place unannounced, at land borders, sea borders and airports. It is more common than you might imagine and is done for various reasons, for example, to detect those who are not permitted to be in the EU and to intercept criminals.

The requirement to carry a passport or EU identity card still exists within Schengen if you are crossing borders.

You don't know the intelligence that the French/Italian police are acting upon. They could have been told to look for a black, middle aged male who is wanted for a criminal offence in another EU country. They then must identify the individual. To jump to the conclusion of racism is not appropriate in my opinion.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I expect either or both of them would plead "National Security" or one of the other usual euphemisms, but it sounds very much like just an excuse for a bit of racism; perhaps they felt that they weren't getting enough "illegal immigrants" they could kick around, so they decided to go find a few.

It should be nothing to do with racism, it's partly about ensuring that only individuals with EU/EEA citizenship or the right to be there are crossing borders. This is necessary because some of the borders of the EU/Schengen area are by their own admission, not 100% secure. For example, the Spanish territory of Melila 'in Morocco' is a common entry point for illegals from further south.

The UK checks all those entering the country as it is not a part of the Schengen Agreement. A list of known criminals is kept by the UK Border Agency and is also shared among EU countries.

 

[radamfi]

My main reason for asking whether it is allowed or normal on this particular route (which I forgot to write in my original post) was whether the timetable should allow for a possible passport check. As I said it was 20 minutes late after leaving the first stop in Italy but there is so much slack in the timetable that it arrived in Milan almost on time. Maybe the slack is there in case there is a passport check, or just because it is a 7 hour train journey.

It was the first time I've seen a passport check on a train crossing borders within the Schengen area since Schengen started. However I hadn't been on that route before so maybe checks on that route are more common.

 

[WestCoast]

It was the first time I've seen a passport check on a train crossing borders within the Schengen area since Schengen started. However I hadn't been on that route before so maybe checks on that route are more common.

I've seen a passport check and sniffer dogs once carried out by the German police coming from the Netherlands.

 

[richw]

I've seen a passport check and sniffer dogs once carried out by the German police coming from the Netherlands.

Passsing through the Netherlands is normally a guarantee to get stopped by customs due to the legality of certain herbal remedies out there. If UK customs are aware you've been in Holland you are pretty much guaranteed a full search on reentry of the uk

 

[Schnellzug]

What it is, of coruse, is the Law Enforcement Authorities and the Intelligence Services (irony) choosing to make trouble for people travelling by train because they can (just as they can with people travelling by Air), whereas they can't do anything at all to cause trouble for people travelling by road, since the border crossings were dismantled. It's a complete farce really, but it's one of the remaining ways that they can exert Control over people, which is of course the sole purpose of their being in the Law Enforcement profession and why nearly all of them chose it as a profession.

 

[coupwotcoup]

I was stopped on the Spanish border in September after getting off the local French train at Port Bou. Showed one of the two guys on patrol my UK/EU passport and he waved me straight on.
Maybe it was a clampdown on non EU citizens but no delays. Ironically on the Barca train 20 minutes later, some bloke - of Asian appearance - had locked/blocked himself inside the toilet and there were about 20 Mossos esquadra awaiting the train's arrival at Girona.
He was cuffed and led off quicker than sharpish. Again, no delays.

 

[route101]

Going from Bratislava to Vienna ive had my passport checked .

 

[northwichcat]

Going from Bratislava to Vienna ive had my passport checked .

So you should do. You were going from Slovakia to Austria.

 

[WestCoast]

So you should do. You were going from Slovakia to Austria.

...Slovakia and Austria have both signed the Schengen Agreement, meaning that only 'random' border controls are permitted. So, no, the chances are that you shouldn't have to show a passport or EU identity card crossing the border.

All but two EU member states, Ireland and the UK, are required to implement Schengen and, with the exceptions of Bulgaria, Cyprus and Romania, have already done so.

There is a separate arrangement between the UK, the Republic of Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, where these come under the CTA (Common Travel Area) meaning that the area's internal borders are subject to minimal or non-existent border controls and can normally be crossed by Irish and British citizens with only minimal identity documents (e.g. driving license).

However, the Irish government has imposed immigration controls on people entering the state from the United Kingdom since 1997. These controls have been compulsory for air travellers, selective on sea crossings and occasional for land crossings. Again, a driving license will be enough to cross.

 

[radamfi]

The Schengen Agreement also applies to some non-EU states, such as Iceland, Norway and Switzerland, so crossing the border from other Schengen countries should usually be without checks.

 

[northwichcat]

...Slovakia and Austria have both signed the Schengen Agreement, meaning that only 'random' border controls are permitted. So, no, the chances are that you shouldn't have to show a passport or EU identity card crossing the border.

OK my understanding of the Schengen Agreement is probably incomplete.

 

[route101]

...Slovakia and Austria have both signed the Schengen Agreement, meaning that only 'random' border controls are permitted. So, no, the chances are that you shouldn't have to show a passport or EU identity card crossing the border.

All but two EU member states, Ireland and the UK, are required to implement Schengen and, with the exceptions of Bulgaria, Cyprus and Romania, have already done so.

There is a separate arrangement between the UK, the Republic of Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, where these come under the CTA (Common Travel Area) meaning that the area's internal borders are subject to minimal or non-existent border controls and can normally be crossed by Irish and British citizens with only minimal identity documents (e.g. driving license).

However, the Irish government has imposed immigration controls on people entering the state from the United Kingdom since 1997. These controls have been compulsory for air travellers, selective on sea crossings and occasional for land crossings. Again, a driving license will be enough to cross.

Last year UK Border Patrol were checking passports at Belfast Port.

 

[WestCoast]

Last year UK Border Patrol were checking passports at Belfast Port.

Minimal checks are allowed, but as far as I am aware they would have had to let you pass with a driving license that displayed your name and British/Irish nationality, as that is an official agreement!

They were probably looking for someone, with some sort of intelligence.

Taken from Northern Ireland tourist board:

What are the Passport and Visa Requirements for entry?
For UK nationals a passport is not strictly necessary but photographic identification is required. Check with your airline/ferry company as requirements vary. Other nationals- valid passport or national identity card required. (Passports are not required for travel between Northern Ireland and the Republic). Citizens from Europe and most other western countries- visas not usually required.

 

[philjo]

I got the Paris - Milan Artesia TGV train on Sunday and the French Douane came through between the last stop before Modane and Modane, checked all passports and luggage of black passengers, and one of them got kicked off the train at Modane. Then there was a full passport check by the Italian police at the first stop in Italy, causing a 20 minute delay as the train didn't depart until they were done.

Is this normal? Surely this isn't supposed to happen because of the Schengen Agreement?

We used the Milan-Paris TGV in 2004.
The French police boarded at Douane. I think there was a passport check but they were mainly wanting to identify luggage on the racks & asking passengers if it was theirs - if no one claimed it they put it onto the platform.
There were a couple of dozen people taken off the train - there seemed to be a sort of pen at the end of the platform that they put them into.
I think the train was at Douane for about 15 minutes.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The French police boarded at Douane.

The douane at Douane?

I've had a couple of odd border-crossing incidents myself. Once I was stopped by the barrier while driving from Belgium to France (very rare to see anyone there!) and they gave the car a very half-hearted search. In the process, they found an unopened tin of Twinings' 'orange pekoe' tea and decided that they were having it. I wasn't going to argue and carried on my way without it.

I've also been stopped at Schipol looking suspicious apparently, as I had no luggage or bag.

But once was stopped by Border control on a French Autoroute about 30 miles from the Spanish border and questionned. Perhaps they were looking for illegal immigrants.

Funniest incident was when taking a very tightly packed truck over the Channel and being ordered to unload it all for inspection, only to find a much more interersting cargo pull up right behind which attracted much more attention. After a few moments I realised that they'd forgotten about me and so I just drove off.

 

[WestCoast]

I've also been stopped at Schipol looking suspicious apparently, as I had no luggage or bag.

I was watching the documentary 'Inside Gatwick' recently and apparently the police officers at airports have been told to look out for people with no bags....:?

Of course, there is many reasons that I can think of for not having any bags, but there you go.

 

[Howardh]

I was watching the documentary 'Inside Gatwick' recently and apparently the police officers at airports have been told to look out for people with no bags....:?

Of course, there is many reasons that I can think of for not having any bags,

- such as British Airways has lost them....

 

[Zamracene749]

Only ever been passport checked once in Europe, near Furth im Wald travelling from Nuremburg to Plzen. Think the guys were quite surprised to find an Englishman tbh.

To answer RichW, surprisingly i've never seen any checks entering or leaving the Netherlands (via Bad Bentheim or the Groningen- Leer line).
Never been searched returning to the UK either by ferry or air.
O/T the station kiosk at Bad Bentheim does sell bottles of rather nice Pinkus Muller beer though if you're ever that way during the loco change

Borders crossed by rail-

-Germany to Austria , Poland, Czech Republic, Belgium, Netherlands.
-Poland to Czech Republic.
- Belgium to France.

 

[WestCoast]

Ah, yes, for that matter I've never been approached recently by UK customs travelling to/from the Netherlands either by sea or air, which I must have done quite a number of times. As a child, I used to go every year on the ferry between Hull and Rotterdam to visit family and I am sure we were casually checked a few times, but again nothing like a 'search'.

I have seen German police sniffer dogs coming on a train at Bad Bentheim - but they just walked up and down and got off.

 

[umontu]

In addition to Westcoast and beermaddavep
I've traveled in and out of the Netherlands twice, once to and from England on the ferry and once to and from Germany by road.
Never got searched, only had my passport checked at ferry terminals and that a wave through with no real look.