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Passing gatelines to speak to a guard

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125Spotter

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Looking for the forum’s experience in what to say if you want to speak to a guard of a service, but gateline staff refuse? Is this just a blind accept of what gateline says and move on with life, or do you have some magic words of persuasion to make this request more likely to be granted?

This could be for a variety of legitimate reasons, but the example I present is where I held a valid ticket for service two hours later, and wished to ask the guard (as an “authorised person”) about travelling earlier. As eventually happened, this was all allowed and I managed to go about my journey. I was very grateful – I got home much earlier than I would otherwise, didn’t waste a lot of time buying terrible food at the station, and I don’t think anyone or the railway was inconvenienced or worse off. But, this was only after a difficult exchange with gateline.

We see plenty of examples here of gateline training for revenue and fare matters being variable, often poor, even at major termini and interchange stations, so I wonder what other example scenarios have arisen for forum readers who wished to speak to on-train crew, and how they typically navigate these.



This happened to me a few months ago. I was unexpectedly early for a train in the middle of the day on a Sunday and intended to enquire of the guard about travelling two hours earlier than booked (on an Advance). A polite request goes a long way, is often granted, and in this case causes minimal detriment to the railway or my fellow traveller – but it is, of course, entirely discretionary. I’d have happily accepted and waited for the booked service if my request had been refused for any reason.

A gateline attendant inspected the ticket after I managed to approach a gate that had a broken reader. I explained I wished to speak to the guard, but they refused, pointing me towards the ticket office with comments like “the guard cannot allow that”. I quickly gave up trying to explain about guard discretion as it was clear I was achieving nothing and probably looked like another chancer who doesn’t know the rules of travelling on an Advance.

In the event, I picked another gate out of sight of that attendant. The guard had no problem with my request and allowed me to board. It wasn’t a busy service, it is not on a ‘main line’ high speed route, and this was a Sunday – all factors I’d considered as to whether my request was likely to be granted or cause detriment to others. I don’t think there’s any analog to other examples I’ve read on the forum of trying to use a later, cheaper advance at a ‘peak’ time, nor was I contributed to overcrowding a train – it was perhaps 30% loaded.

The station concerned isn’t in a CTA, and in any event I held a valid ticket, just for a later train, and I wasn’t intending to commit any technical or actual breach of any rules – I wouldn’t step foot inside the train until I’d located the guard and obtained permission to do so. It left a positive impression of the railway and I was grateful to get home earlier.

But this only worked for me due to the design of the gateline being long and thin, staffed by separate attendants, so I could simply use another gate. I couldn’t necessarily have achieved the same outcome at a smaller station or where there is a single gateline staffed by a single team.
 
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jfollows

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I’d be reluctant to criticise someone on a gateline for doing their job properly, your ticket wasn’t valid and they were not wrong not to allow you to pass. I’d rather spend my time criticising gateline staff for doing their job incorrectly, reported frequently here. Discretion is allowed, of course, but it’s not mandatory. Get over it and think you were lucky in the end!
 

LowLevel

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There's no entitlement to ask the guard to allow you to travel earlier, the company policy is that you should use the ticket office to pay an appropriate admin fee and excess fare if applicable - therefore you're not likely to get anywhere with insisting.

Personally I've had occasions where I've had problems to deal with, shortformed trains etc and people wheedling at me who won't take no for an answer about travelling outside the terms of their tickets and I would have been very glad of the opportunity to have had a gateline keep them away from me!

The guard using their discretion is just that though - there's a formal process you can follow as directed by the gateline, you just, in fairness, don't want to.

Having said all that, provided my answer is taken as given I don't actually mind people politely asking me about travelling a bit early or whatever and most stations as long as it's not totally unreasonable will allow it.
 

transportphoto

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The idea of the gateline is to only allow those who hold valid tickets through. The gateline staff were doing their jobs properly. The correct remedy here is for the passenger to attend the ticket office to discuss excessing the ticket they hold. We shouldn’t come to expect discretion.
 

AlterEgo

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The gateline staff are “authorised persons” and they’re allowed to both allow travel and deny it.
 

rocrat

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I'm surprised your advance wouldn't open the ticket barriers anyhow -- many tend to not care about the time!

There is often an open unstaffed barrier at larger stations off-peak in any case. Using this very consistently might raise questions, but as long as you hold a valid ticket for a train departing that station, you can't be criticised for being 'early,' though it might raise suspicions about refund fraud if you never scan your tickets...

I'm not sure of the exact rules around platform tickets, but asking for a platform ticket (usually = being allowed onto said platform without said ticket) is the easiest way to access platforms, though if you subsequently get on a train and frequently use this to do so at the same station, you might get an RPI or similar after you.

Of course, discretion is a good thing where possible for the public perception of the railway's customer service, and I'd have likely done similarly on the proviso that it was entirely trying my luck and no more! Most guards are eminently reasonable, particularly if you know them, and much more so than gateline staff.

However, a word of warning that this might land you in very hot water if the guard doesn't subsequently defend you. I had this on an SWR service where I had an off-peak day return and the last two trains of the night had been cancelled, so I restarted my journey in the morning.

I asked to be let through and the gateline staff were quite happy to let me, and the guard just told me to get on the train as it was already running late. I just so happened to board a carriage with an RPI and BTP who immediately checked my tickets. Of course, this was a legitimate issue and the RPI was very reasonable and understanding, but the guard actively ignored me whilst this was going on.

Somewhat stressful, but fortunately worked out fine for me. I had the screenshots of the cancellations to prove my case if needed be, but I'd rather not have to do so in the first place!

I do agree with the others that discretion is just that -- discretionary! -- and the gateline staff and guards are not under any obligation to show any, particularly as it doesn't seem that there was any disruption and so no reason beyond goodwill to show any such discretion!
 

Kite159

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The issue is some will chance 'i will speak with the guard' and simply board the train without checking first. Or even try and pass off getting given permission from the gateline member of staff to board an earlier/later service. As for travelling on the wrong train, it depends on the guard. Assuming it isn't someone who hasn't asked me before boarding, I will tend to be a bit flexible (+- an hour either side) giving them a warning that to ensure they are on the correct train in the future as revenue might fine them & other guards take a harder line (assuming there hasn't been issues with cancelled/delayed trains or buses). Tending to use the "Accept with Warning" feature on the equipment if using an e-ticket.

Although sometimes it doesn't help a popular train booking website will sell advance tickets without informing the customer they are advance tickets, especially if they are using 'Split Save' (and in some cases will sell split tickets meant to be used on a stopper without telling the customer they are limited to using the stopper and not the fast service).
 
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dcbwhaley

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I’d be reluctant to criticise someone on a gateline for doing their job properly, your ticket wasn’t valid and they were not wrong not to allow you to pass. I’d rather spend my time criticising gateline staff for doing their job incorrectly, reported frequently here. Discretion is allowed, of course, but it’s not mandatory. Get over it and think you were lucky in the end!
Are you saying that if you have an advance ticket for, say, the 1400 train, you are not allowed through the barriers at 1200 in order to get a spot of lunch at the Starbucks on platform 2?
Surely it is upo to the card to ensure that you are on the correct train?
 

125Spotter

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Thank you all. I want to be clear: I don’t wish to criticise the gateline attendant who was doing their job, and I know they have to deal with a lot in the context of unusual ticketing requests and defend against fare evasion. Hats off to them for doing that day-in, day-out. I’m generally the type who will avoid confrontation at the best of times, even if I think I’m in the right – words are cheap on an internet forum but suffice to say I wasn’t steeling for a fight or to bring any heat to the conversation, just to indeed “try my luck” as rocrat says.

I also did not expect any goodwill from the guard (as stated in the original post – I was very willing to accept “no” as an answer), and it was only by chance that I chose a non-working gate which resulted in the gateline interaction in the first place. Other gates did indeed accept the ticket just fine. Perhaps I did expect goodwill from the gateline, point taken, although I was expecting it to just be a machine giving me the goodwill by letting me through a bit early. :)

Personally I've had occasions where I've had problems to deal with, shortformed trains etc and people wheedling at me who won't take no for an answer about travelling outside the terms of their tickets and I would have been very glad of the opportunity to have had a gateline keep them away from me…
Having said all that, provided my answer is taken as given I don't actually mind people politely asking me about travelling a bit early or whatever and most stations as long as it's not totally unreasonable will allow it.
Of course, discretion is a good thing where possible for the public perception of the railway's customer service, and I'd have likely done similarly on the proviso that it was entirely trying my luck and no more! Most guards are eminently reasonable, particularly if you know them, and much more so than gateline staff.
It’s a difficult position for me to defend but I think LowLevel and rocrat capture well the sentiment I’m trying to strike here – and LowLevel, you sound like a reasonable and fair conductor/guard/TM, so thank you for your service. I only considered asking because I could see the guard stood beside the train some 25 minutes prior to departure without being engaged in anything obviously keeping them busy so hoped it wasn’t to harm.

If the guard had said “err no, we’re expecting a train full of school kids here shortly, sorry” or “no, I’m getting off at xyz so you might run into problems”, or short-forming, or the sky was the wrong shade of blue, or even not give a reason then that’s fine.

Granted, the rules-based society we seem to increasingly live in means technically there was a ‘proper’ means to effect this – which would have resulted in a fee 2.5x the original value of the ticket to ride in a train two hours later, which I would not have paid. I suspect the rural community in which I live where we tend to take people at face value, common sense and trust people is very different to the types of behaviours that show up in our bigger towns and cities these days and which we see documented on this forum. Granted, there’s no way to differentiate me from the next person with entirely different intentions. But that’s an entirely different conversation I don’t intend to open here.

Thanks all.
 
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