• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Passengers - would you report a fare dodger?

Status
Not open for further replies.

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,913
Location
UK
I take your point, but permitting stations to be entered using codes that are generally internal to the industry is (in my view) introducing complexity with little benefit other than for a few train enthusiasts.

I don't know how ticket machines work in the UK, as I haven't bought a ticket from one in years, but I assume you can start entering the name of the station and you will be presented with a list of matching stations that gradually gets shorter as you enter more letters? That, and a list of commonly-used stations, seems to me to be all you need.

If you'd read what I said, I pointed out the many train operators now show the codes to the public. They're NOT some secret internal coding system, and people know how they work with airports. And if you don't know what they mean, it doesn't matter as you're not forced to use or know them (but regular travellers will know them and be able to select the right station quickly and accurately every time).

Yes, the machines drill down, but there's such a lag that you might start entering (for example) W E L W to find Welwyn Garden City, but spot it appear as you type - having entered the next character. If so, you to select the station but it moves as the next letter removes choices. Once you've pressed the wrong station, or indeed whenever you make the wrong selection, there's usually no way back. You abort and start over. It's infuriating.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,840
I would never blow someone up for fare dodging. I pay enough in train fare already, I'm not about to top that up with offering a voluntary service to the TOC as well because they can't be bothered providing a decent service. If fair evasion is a big enough problem I'm sure they will make sure they are dealing with it.

How exactly will they make sure they are dealing with it?

What more can TOC's realistically do to prevent fare evasion?
 

Bob Ames

Member
Joined
25 May 2013
Messages
108
Location
Wigan
I take your point, but permitting stations to be entered using codes that are generally internal to the industry is (in my view) introducing complexity with little benefit other than for a few train enthusiasts.

NRE allows precisely what Jon is suggesting, and I don't think NRE was designed with enthusiasts in mind. ;)
 

GatwickDepress

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2013
Messages
2,588
Location
Leeds
Aye, my mum knows the three letter codes for her local stations, as the touchscreen on certain TVMs make typing the full name rather annoying.
 

maniacmartin

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
15 May 2012
Messages
5,438
Location
Croydon
'STP' is much easier than usign a laggy TVM and trying to guess if theyve entered it as ST PANCRAS, LONDON ST PANCRAS, SAINT PANCRAS or some other variant.
 
Last edited:

swj99

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
770
Is it any wonder that the average person, who doesn't know the difference between reality and media hype, finds it difficuly to work out or learn how to deal with anything more complicated than the methods of paying for travel that exist already ?
 

Mutant Lemming

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
3,191
Location
London
Is it any wonder that the average person, who doesn't know the difference between reality and media hype, finds it difficuly to work out or learn how to deal with anything more complicated than the methods of paying for travel that exist already ?

With the general dumbing down of society with you have thought that those responsible would have done the same with regards to train fares - unless their ultimate aim is to make it too difficult for the Jeremy Kyle acolytes to work out how to travel by train.
 
Joined
13 Apr 2011
Messages
649
Location
Helsby
With the general dumbing down of society with you have thought that those responsible would have done the same with regards to train fares - unless their ultimate aim is to make it too difficult for the Jeremy Kyle acolytes to work out how to travel by train.

Darwinism in action? :)
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,913
Location
UK
'STP' is much easier than usign a laggy TVM and trying to guess if theyve entered it as ST PANCRAS, LONON ST PANCRAS, SAINT PANCRAS or some other variant.

That's a good point. If you don't know how some stations are entered on the TVM, you won't even find it when doing a search.

The drilling down isn't like a modern system that will show partial matches (thus, entering 'panc' would show St Pancras, London St Pancras and any other variation). If you started with St, it wouldn't find London St Pancras or even Saint Pancras (not that I'd expect it as Saint, but you get the point).
 

DiscoStu

Member
Joined
26 May 2010
Messages
323
Location
Northampton, UK
How about if you knew of someone who was claiming benefits they weren't entitled to? Would your leniency extend to these too?


That's very different.

There's a much bigger moral obligation to not sponge off of the state and John Q. Taxpayer than there is to not jump on a train and hitch a free ride.

What's the worst thing that can happen if somebody doesn't buy a ticket? Practically nothing. There is the fairness issue, but then they're taking the risk of being stung for the penalty fair.

If you've got the balls to try it, I'm not going to try and stop you or grass you up.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,678
Location
Nottingham
That's very different.

There's a much bigger moral obligation to not sponge off of the state and John Q. Taxpayer than there is to not jump on a train and hitch a free ride.

I'm not sure why. Any loss of revenue to the train operator is likely to end up eventually as a lower premium or a higher subsidy on the franchise, hence falls on the taxpayer in the end. And while a single short journey may not be a big issue, someone who does this routinely like the hedge fund manager who recently paid back about £35000 is in the same league as a large-scale benefit fraudster.
 

onefortheboys

New Member
Joined
7 Aug 2014
Messages
1
as frustrating as it is to encounter fare dodgers I remember one railway manager saying no ticket is worth the price of a possible assault, he said to me "NEVER PUT YOURSELF INTO THE THEATRE OF CONFLICT"
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,035
Location
St Albans
as frustrating as it is to encounter fare dodgers I remember one railway manager saying no ticket is worth the price of a possible assault, he said to me "NEVER PUT YOURSELF INTO THE THEATRE OF CONFLICT"

It seems from today's Evening Standard that the hedge fund dealer who recently paid a £43k+ fine for 5 years of fare avoidance has been named, - probably by a fellow traveller!

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/how-did-the-city-slicker-dodge-43000-in-train-fares-and-did-one-of-his-fellow-commuters-shop-him-9653637.html?origin=internalSearch
 

drbdrb

Member
Joined
31 Dec 2013
Messages
160
It seems from today's Evening Standard that the hedge fund dealer who recently paid a £43k+ fine for 5 years of fare avoidance has been named, - probably by a fellow traveller!

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle...s-shop-him-9653637.html?origin=internalSearch
That isn't the story

His crime was discovered by an RPI, but the train company morals were tested by the offer of cash to make the problem go away and they failed.

The story is that a fellow passenger was outraged by this conspiracy to avoid justice, so shopped them both to the BTP.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,035
Location
St Albans
That isn't the story

His crime was discovered by an RPI, but the train company morals were tested by the offer of cash to make the problem go away and they failed.

The story is that a fellow passenger was outraged by this conspiracy to avoid justice, so shopped them both to the BTP.

I didn't say that a fellow traveller shopped him for the original transgression. One of those who knew who it was just complained to BTP who have since decided to investigate i.e. as you have said. Now Burrows name is in the public domain.
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,840
That isn't the story

His crime was discovered by an RPI, but the train company morals were tested by the offer of cash to make the problem go away and they failed.

The story is that a fellow passenger was outraged by this conspiracy to avoid justice, so shopped them both to the BTP.

Isn't it just like somebody stealing from an individual and then offering them a cash payment in compensation? Surely most people would prefer that option rather than the culprit being prosecuted and having to take pot luck as to what compo they get?

Anyway SET probably wouldn't want a great deal of publicity as it just shows how easy it is to get a free ride.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,385
Location
Yorkshire

mr williams

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2010
Messages
132
To get back to the original question of whether you would report a fare dodger, I once did. I'm going back 30 odd years but I was in the ticket queue at Newport one Friday evening when the guy in front of me asked for a single to Abergavenny.

Upon being told it was £1.80 he exclaimed "HOW MUCH??" and stomped away from the counter without buying the ticket. IIRC that was nearly twice as much as the then bus fare but a day return was only 10p or 20p more, and given it was more than twice as fast as the bus a return was more than competitive (it's now £8.50 single, £10 day return).

Trouble was, the last bus had gone (even in those days it was at about 18.30) and the train was now his only option unless he wanted to get a bus to Pontypool and walk the remaining 9 miles or wait until the next morning. I watched the guy walk to the station exit, hang around for a few seconds and then walk back in, buy a platform ticket and use that to get through what was then a manned barrier.

I was incensed, mainly because I was struggling financially at the time and my train fare was an unwelcome and unexpected hole in my finances. I was newly married but no sooner had we set up in our first home when out of the blue my employer closed the local office and the staff that weren't made redundant were transferred to the Newport branch. Neither of us were earning much, we didn't have a car, couldn't afford to move and even if we had that would have meant my wife either having to reverse commute or get a new job so I had to bite the bullet and travel. Those of you who commute long distances will probably think "oh you poor thing" but we were living over a mile from the station, there was no bus and in those days Abergavenny only got seven trains to Newport on a weekday and eight back. Worst of all we were expected to adhere to a strict 9.00 - 5.30 day (no flexible or family friendly working in those days!), the only train that would get me in before 9.00am arrived at 8.17 (the next got in at 9.03 <() and it was the same coming home with the frustration most nights of seeing the 17.35 pull out just as I came tearing up the station approach meaning that I had to wait until 19.00 for the next one, and without having the spare cash to while away almost an hour and a half in the nearest pub (and no mobiles, internet or on-line entertainment in those days either, just a little transistor radio and earpiece!!).

This guy, on the other hand, was smartly dressed with a briefcase, late 30s/early 40s, and when he got his wallet out to get change from the change pouch I could see that he had at least £15-£20 in notes in there as well as a credit card (hey, that was a lot of money in those days - think 60p a pint for beer and scale up from there!), so it wasn't that he had no money or was stranded, he just didn't want to pay it, whereas the £40-£50 a month I was shelling out on train fares, whilst not crippling us, meant cutting back on nearly all our leisure spending and the other things that couples in their mid-20s like to do, so it was fair to say that I was furious.

When I went through the barrier I told the ticket collector what I'd seen, described the bloke and asked if he could ensure that the tickets were checked on the train before Abergavenny. "No problem, thanks for that". I wandered off to the platform and looking back I could see that he was on the phone to somebody.

I couldn't see the guy on the platform but in those days it was mainly class 25 or 31 engines and the old Mk I compartment coaches on that route and guess who got into my compartment and sat opposite me?

We were less than a mile from Abergavenny when the door slid open and I heard "tickets please". I noticed that there was not one but two guards in the corridor as the bloke went through the pantomime of looking through his wallet and turning his pockets out trying to find the non-existent ticket.

"Oh, I can't find my ticket..." I was frantically trying to decide whether I should say anything when the guard said in a firm voice "are you travelling to Abergavenny, Sir?" ("yes") "well I think we'd better sort this out when we get to Abergavenny".

When I got off I could see that he was having a very nervous and animated conversation with the guard who had got off the train and they were joined on the platform by a guy in a suit (from his appearance probably more BR managerial than BTP).

Sadly, I didn't see the final outcome as my wife used to meet me at the station on a Friday evening and we'd get our weekly treat of a takeaway and a bottle of wine on the way home and she wasn't in the mood to listen to my protestations as she dragged me away!

If the guy had been stranded without means of payment or appeared down on his luck I probably wouldn't have said or done anything, but as I said he had the means to pay but just chose not to. Having said that, I suppose theft is theft no matter what the circumstances......
 
Last edited:

Blinder

Member
Joined
15 Aug 2014
Messages
53
I would, and have. Surprisingly nothing has been done about it.

A person that I know regularly travels between 2 stations in Kent on her "partners" staff travel card. She travels from home to her place of employment.

She has been doing this for about 6 years.

It has been reported to South Eastern, even giving train times, but still she travels without being challenged.
 

muz379

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2014
Messages
2,502
I would, and have. Surprisingly nothing has been done about it.

A person that I know regularly travels between 2 stations in Kent on her "partners" staff travel card. She travels from home to her place of employment.

She has been doing this for about 6 years.

It has been reported to South Eastern, even giving train times, but still she travels without being challenged.

Im not suprised given what you have just said .

Im not quite sure what you would expect train crew to do about someone "fraudulently" using a staff travel card . Given that whenever I am presented with a travel card issued by my own TOC I dont question the person as to where they are going or what they are doing . Even if it was apparent someone was misusing staff travel facilities in this way are you really expecting staff to report their colleagues partners and family for this ?

Its the same as when I have come across people with boxes before and they have asked me if I have a pen so they can fill their boxes out . I have told them I cant seem to find a pen so they should fill them in later ;) .
 

Scott M

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2014
Messages
398
I wouldn't. It is tempting but I live life by the rule of 'Don't invite trouble'.
 

Blinder

Member
Joined
15 Aug 2014
Messages
53
Doesn't that just encourage misuse?

Correct Jon.

This person is abusing the facilities that all rail-workers are entitled too. In the past, ticket inspectors would follow any suspect to their place of work and establish the facts, before taking the matter further and the miscreany having their facilities removed.

I have now reported this person to ATOC to see what happens next..

As a side note, the persons son, works on the "gate-line" at one end of her journey, so is he "compelling the fraud", by allowing her through the barrier?
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,380
Location
Liverpool
Correct Jon.

This person is abusing the facilities that all rail-workers are entitled too. In the past, ticket inspectors would follow any suspect to their place of work and establish the facts, before taking the matter further and the miscreany having their facilities removed.

I have now reported this person to ATOC to see what happens next..

As a side note, the persons son, works on the "gate-line" at one end of her journey, so is he "compelling the fraud", by allowing her through the barrier?

Just a personal opinion but I'm not sure getting 2 people done for fraud and probably sacked is any good for the economy or the tax payer. Perhaps a quiet word is in order?
 

dysonsphere

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2013
Messages
518
Why were the queues stupid? Who queues for faulty machines?!? Surely everyone got on the train and asked to pay at the destination?
Huge queue for ticket office due to both machines being out of order and pay at Paddington is not allowed any more as you have traveled without a ticket. No excuses apperantly you are supposed to be late for work, miss connection because they cant keep ticket machines working or open second window if theres a problem.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top