Passengers - would you report a fare dodger?

[the sniper]

Obviously I don't approve of those breaking the law, but neither do I have much sympathy for train operators, or to be frank for the commission-primed 'revenue protection officers' (brilliant doublespeak).

RPIs where I am don't get commission.

To the OP, if you'd needed to use the toilet, it'd be worth telling the Guard, as getting fare dodgers out of the toilet is fairly easy and is quite a good opportunity for giving these people a public shaming. If not, don't worry about it.

 

[jopsuk]

Are you putting yourself in danger doing so? Are they going to attack you when you get off? Are they armed? I certainly wouldn't put myself at any risk interfering, leave it to the staff trained to do the job correctly.

That's the idea of the text system- avoids you ever confronting the possible dodger

 

[richw]

That's the idea of the text system- avoids you ever confronting the possible dodger

What text system? As a near daily traveller I've never seen or come across it.

 

[DarloRich]

I can’t believe this board at times.

I am unable because of forum rules to express my complete and utter contempt, in the blunt industrial language I prefer, for the turn a blind eye types. YOU AND I PAY IN FARES MORE BEUCASE THESE IDIOTS DON’T PAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So yes. Report them. Speak to the guard. If you don’t have the stones for that text or twitter the TOC or BTP

 

[meridian2]

I can’t believe this board at times.

I am unable because of forum rules to express my complete and utter contempt, in the blunt industrial language I prefer, for the turn a blind eye types. YOU AND I PAY IN FARES MORE BEUCASE THESE IDIOTS DON’T PAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So yes. Report them. Speak to the guard. If you don’t have the stones for that text or twitter the TOC or BTP

Why should I make it my responsibility to cater for other people's lack of responsibility? If guards don't spot the fare dodgers, that's more to do with the system than it is to do with my inaction.
Of course it would be far cheaper to have passengers do the work for them! :roll:

 

[jopsuk]

What text system? As a near daily traveller I've never seen or come across it.

The one I mentioned above as being run by Greater Anglia- there's posters in the trains. if you're on a Greater Anglia service, text "DODGER" followed by a description of the person, what train you're on and ideally which carriage.

 

[DarloRich]

Why should I make it my responsibility to cater for other people's lack of responsibility? If guards don't spot the fare dodgers, that's more to do with the system than it is to do with my inaction.
Of course it would be far cheaper to have passengers do the work for them! :roll:

It is your responsibility as a decent upstanding citizen to report a crime.

 

[Rational Plan]

The only time I spot one is if they jump the barriers or when the ticket inspector catches them in their seat. So I never really think about it. Who I am I to know who has a travel card or pass etc.

 

[bb21]

Haven't we been over all this before?

The consensus seemed to be, yes report them if you are happy to, but that would be that. Once you have reported them, leave the guard to do his job. Don't interfere. There is no obligation to report them if you don't want to.

As for the libel claim from earlier, please, stop this madness.

 

[ComUtoR]

Morning folks,

If I report a ticker dodger and they get caught. Do I get the commission ? Whilst that is highly doubtful there is zero incentive to report fare dodgers. You can harp on about the knock on costs to ticket price increases but the reality is that ticket prices will continue to go up and up irrespective of fare dodgers. Revenue protection also has an associated cost.

In the interest of disclosure. I have reported regular fare dodgers to my local TOC in the past but, quite frankly, they have done fork all about it. When the TOC doesn't care why should I ? Gatelines are unmanned, ticket offices are regularly closed, staff are removed from trains, and station infrastructure provides open access. The TOC should have a zero tolerance attitude towards revenue protection but they also see that the cost isn't justified. The first responsibility to protect revenue is with the TOC but they also have a duty to the shareholders to make a profit.

I regularly speak with the guard on the train and the stories they tell me are shocking. Especially those about the younger travelers. I do not envy their job whatsoever.

 

[muz379]

I can’t believe this board at times.

I am unable because of forum rules to express my complete and utter contempt, in the blunt industrial language I prefer, for the turn a blind eye types. YOU AND I PAY IN FARES MORE BEUCASE THESE IDIOTS DON’T PAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So yes. Report them. Speak to the guard. If you don’t have the stones for that text or twitter the TOC or BTP

Contempt really , think someone needs to get real here , some of the turn a blind eye types might have a good reason for turning that blind eye . I was reading in the local press the other day about a man who the police have caught up with who was brandishing a very realistic firearm looking air gun on a train , You just dont know what some people are capable and prepared to do . If they have no issue traveling without a ticket what else are they prepared to do .But then you say people who aren't prepared to report to the guard face to face have no "stones" how derogatory .
I as A guard would not expect any of my passengers to get involved in reporting someone who they suspect of fare evasion , But I suppose you would have contempt for a women traveling with her children who wouldn't be prepared to step in and potentially put her own safety at risk . Im afraid it is you we should have contempt for .


I personally wouldn't report anybody I suspected of being a fare dodger , because you dont know who has a ticket or pass in their pocket or who intends to pay . And if I am traveling as a member of the public off duty I have no authority to ask anybody if they posses a ticket or the means to buy a ticket . Not to mention that I dont want to get involved in the confrontation that obviously going and reporting someone for fare evasion could cause

Even if someone gets on the train and goes straight to the toilet and spends the next 15 minutes in there how do you know they dont actually have something wrong with them medically and that is the reason they are in there , or they might just even be having a cheeky cigarette or a private phone call .

TBH as I said in my earlier post , even if you 100% know someone is a fare evader which is very unlikely . Reporting it to the guard will result in not a lot being done a lot of the time because guards are pretty powerless to tackle the cant and wont pay brigade so your fares are still going to be higher to cove for fare evaders .

 

[GodAtum]

I always report people sitting in 1st class without a correct ticket through the medium of Twitter (the TOC's twitter and BTP).

 

[yorkie]

I always report people sitting in 1st class without a correct ticket through the medium of Twitter (the TOC's twitter and BTP).

Must be very low instances as the last report was 3rd February. https://twitter.com/GodAtum/with_replies

I'm not sure how you're checking their tickets though?

 

[northwichcat]

That's one problem with Northern insisting conductors return to the rear of the train to open the doors. I've witnessed conductors suspicious of someone hiding in the toilet release the doors closest to the toilet when the train stops and catches the person coming out of the toilet with no ticket. Unfortunately, some conductors also get over suspicious of anyone using the toilet and force their way in to toilets on Pacers with faulty locks when a passenger is genuinely using it, or wait outside the toilet and demand to see the passenger's ticket as soon as they leave the toilet even if it's a passenger who has already shown their ticket to the conductor prior to going in to the toilet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And therein lies the answer to a problem we face .....the average fare paid for a Northern rail journey is £2.28 , a delay costs Northern Rail £70 per minute.

Which is one reason why the Northern Rail consultation suggests drivers releasing and closing the doors so on board staff can focus on revenue duties without delaying the train.

 

[Pugwash]

As a suggestion - why not insentivise passengers to shop a fare evader by giving them a percentage of the amount recovered in rail vouchers.

There seems very little in it for passengers to report fare evasion.

 

[Antman]

Greater Anglia, who have a lot of DOO services, have a text number that you can anonymously report suspected dodgers to- the idea being that an RPI gets an alert and intercepts the train, or the guard is alerted

I thought the main idea of the Greater Anglia system was to inform them if you know of somebody who regularly fare dodgers, ie to work and back every day?

Other than that if I am on a train how can I know whether the person opposite has a vaild ticket or not?

 

[GodAtum]

Why not have a light ontop of each seat, the passenger has to scan their ticket, if its incorrect it turns red. That might put people off!

 

[DarloRich]

Contempt really , think someone needs to get real here , some of the turn a blind eye types might have a good reason for turning that blind eye . I was reading in the local press the other day about a man who the police have caught up with who was brandishing a very realistic firearm looking air gun on a train , You just dont know what some people are capable and prepared to do . If they have no issue traveling without a ticket what else are they prepared to do .But then you say people who aren't prepared to report to the guard face to face have no "stones" how derogatory .
I as A guard would not expect any of my passengers to get involved in reporting someone who they suspect of fare evasion , But I suppose you would have contempt for a women traveling with her children who wouldn't be prepared to step in and potentially put her own safety at risk . Im afraid it is you we should have contempt for .


I personally wouldn't report anybody I suspected of being a fare dodger , because you dont know who has a ticket or pass in their pocket or who intends to pay . And if I am traveling as a member of the public off duty I have no authority to ask anybody if they posses a ticket or the means to buy a ticket . Not to mention that I dont want to get involved in the confrontation that obviously going and reporting someone for fare evasion could cause

Even if someone gets on the train and goes straight to the toilet and spends the next 15 minutes in there how do you know they dont actually have something wrong with them medically and that is the reason they are in there , or they might just even be having a cheeky cigarette or a private phone call .

TBH as I said in my earlier post , even if you 100% know someone is a fare evader which is very unlikely . Reporting it to the guard will result in not a lot being done a lot of the time because guards are pretty powerless to tackle the cant and wont pay brigade so your fares are still going to be higher to cove for fare evaders .

Not to sure what you are saying but my point is not that the passenger should accuse the potential evader directly, but that they should inform the guard who, using his skills, training and experience can decide what action to take, based on his own risk assessment of the situation.

Further, it seems that people are often happy to bemoan the decline in standards/behaviour/etc in this country but seem unwilling to do anything about it! As I said, the honest are paying more because the dishonest don’t.

 

[muz379]

Not to sure what you are saying but my point is not that the passenger should accuse the potential evader directly, but that they should inform the guard who, using his skills, training and experience can decide what action to take, based on his own risk assessment of the situation.

Further, it seems that people are often happy to bemoan the decline in standards/behaviour/etc in this country but seem unwilling to do anything about it! As I said, the honest are paying more because the dishonest don’t.

even if someone reports it to the guard its sometimes painfully obvious that someone has reported someone they suspect of being a fare evader. Its not the job of the passengers to police the train .

The point is if people decide they do want to get involved and report something like this , then so be it they are free to do so . But I dont think its fair of you to hold people in contempt or accuse people of having no "stones" because they dont want to get involved .

Its much like for example if I was getting assaulted carrying out my revenue duties , I would be extremely appreciative if another passenger decided they did want to get involved and come to my aid , however In no way do I expect this , and I certainly wouldn't hold those in contempt or accuse them of being gutless if they chose not to intervene .

And what about the older generations who would go round accusing everybody under a certain age of being a fare evader just because they are a little bit noisy or are smirking ?

And even if the honest are being subjected to fare increases every year , some of which can be blamed on those that chose not to pay which I am not disputing . As we established earlier in the thread reporting it to the guard isn't going to result in that changing .

 

[dysonsphere]

Well what do you do a few years ago I was at Hayes (west london) the machines were not working and the queue was stupid so went to Paddington anyway, tried to pay there and got told it was my fault. How can it be my fault if there machinies arnt working.

 

[meridian2]

It is your responsibility as a decent upstanding citizen to report a crime.

It's also my responsibility as an 'upstanding citizen' not to accuse an innocent person.
The difference here is simple: you're trained to spot and deal with fare dodgers. I am not. Quite how, then, you make the justification that it's my duty as an 'upstanding citizen' to report people on your behalf is fatuous to say the least. It's neither fair nor justified of you to say that since I am not a trained railway guard!
As someone else has said, you need to get real here.

 

[thelongestroad]

I've had passengers report a few times..

Few months ago someone got on and went straight to the toilet where they "hung" inside for 15 minutes before a passenger alerted me to her (correct) suspicions that this person was in the toilet evading their fare.

I went to the toilet (welfare check as much as anything), knocked on the door with my carriage key and didn't get any response. Made a final verbal warning before I used my carriage key to unlock the door but he was already holding the lock.. holding the lock in the 'hiding' way rather than the 'taking a dump' way.

After a bit of verbal he came out but had no ticket/money; so his payment was some public embarrassment when he did exit.

On another WC related occasion a passenger did get involved and report it, because he needed the toilet.. but they only came about because they had to haggle that I wouldn't try and charge them.. no money anyway.

 

[Tomnick]

Which is one reason why the Northern Rail consultation suggests drivers releasing and closing the doors so on board staff can focus on revenue duties without delaying the train.

The delay minutes will usually start mounting whilst the train is held awaiting Police attention, or at least the threat of same to encourage the fare-evader or other troublemaker to leave of their own accord, not just because the Guard is being distracted from station duties. That seems to be one of the most effective ways of dealing with various problems, but clearly the higher powers would rather see undesirables (not just fare evaders, but other problems too) able to remain on the train to their destination, with the minimal 'customer service' presence (if present at all) unable to do very much about it, and certainly not 'manage' the problem so that it can be dealt with at the most convenient location as a decent Guard would.

 

[yorkie]

Why not have a light ontop of each seat, the passenger has to scan their ticket, if its incorrect it turns red. That might put people off!

Good luck developing such a system that can understand the complexities of the Routeing Guide for an affordable price

Oh, and don't forget... when they update the Routeing Guide, the permitted routes that were valid when the ticket was bought remain valid for that ticket, despite there being no official record of what that validity was! Also illegal changes to the Routeing Guide should also show as valid, as should tickets which would be invalid if it wasn't for an accompanying itinerary!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...So yes. Report them. Speak to the guard. If you don’t have the stones for that text or twitter the TOC or BTP

You say that, but a member of this forum got a police caution for "wasting police time" for reporting someone who he believed to have an invalid pass.

 

[theshillito]

I was travelling Liverpool LS to Crewe with LondonMidland once. Saw three girls cram inside a toilet (the non-disabled one). After we left South Parkway, the guard appeared and I mentioned it to her. She said okay and then into the next carriage checking more tickets. Came back 5 minutes later and yelled onto the toilet to get them to come out. They admitted they were trying to get to Runcorn and she said she'd go to get some forms from the back of the train to issue fines. She didn't return and they got off at Runcorn without any issue. Whether there was anyone at Runcorn waiting for them, I don't know, but I was a little disappointed they didn't get fined, though still quite impressed they managed to get THREE people inside one of those toilets.

 

[sd0733]

Iv had 3 reports of fare dodging from passengers in the last few weeks. 1 was very blatant and an off-duty police officer was sat outside when a whole family went in and hid in the toilet. He alerted me and they were removed from the train before we even left. The other 2 though were wrong, they both had valid tickets and iv no idea wh they thought otherwise.
Iv even had groups bragging to passengers that they'd not paid when they all had tickets for some odd reason so its impossible to tell if they've got one bar physically checking it

 

[richw]

I've just seen someone report three lads, the TM shrugged his shoulders and walked off.

The three lads were all in The same toilet cubicle. Must have been a tight squeeze.

What confused me, they all boarded at Truro as boarded in front of me, and Truro has barriers, so I am more curious as to what they were up to.

 

[jon0844]

Well what do you do a few years ago I was at Hayes (west london) the machines were not working and the queue was stupid so went to Paddington anyway, tried to pay there and got told it was my fault. How can it be my fault if there machinies arnt working.

Why were the queues stupid? Who queues for faulty machines?!? Surely everyone got on the train and asked to pay at the destination?

 

[plastictaffy]

Sometimes people do help with fare-dodgers. I had a chap in the toilet the other day, maintained he fell asleep.
Chap stood in the vestibule pipes up "I don't think so, pal, as soon as you saw the Guard coming through the door at the end of the coach, you went in there....."

Also had punters forcibly chuck people off before now, too. Never underestimate the paying customer!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

RPIs where I am don't get commission.

RPI's where I am don't exist. They are called "Ticket Checkers" now. They no longer come to the train when you request one at a station, they no longer go out and about doing blocks at various stations, and they no longer sell tickets. Just makes my job (as a Guard) harder.

 

[DarloRich]

even if someone reports it to the guard its sometimes painfully obvious that someone has reported someone they suspect of being a fare evader. Its not the job of the passengers to police the train .

The point is if people decide they do want to get involved and report something like this , then so be it they are free to do so . But I dont think its fair of you to hold people in contempt or accuse people of having no "stones" because they dont want to get involved .

Of course they are free to do so. It is their right. We had a similar thread on here about a person being assaulted and the number who said they would turn away rather than stand up and even make a police statement was shocking. Yet often these are the same people who moan about failing standards and behaviour. My point is don’t complain if you won’t do something to stop it.

Its much like for example if I was getting assaulted carrying out my revenue duties , I would be extremely appreciative if another passenger decided they did want to get involved and come to my aid , however In no way do I expect this , and I certainly wouldn't hold those in contempt or accuse them of being gutless if they chose not to intervene .

See above but I do wonder if my values are at odds with the majority! Perhaps I was brought up differently?

I simply do not understand how people can be so selfish as to ignore a crime being committed and actively refuse to help the victim seek justice! I can understand how you might not wade in like John Wayne but to not even report a crime or give a witness statement is wrong in my mind.