Passengers - would you report a fare dodger?

[trainophile]

Comments from rail staff welcome too!

I was on a train today, when three lads (20-ish I suppose) boarded and one of them immediately locked himself in the toilet, where he remained for some 20 minutes, until another passenger started banging on the door (it was a two-coach train with only one toilet).

I was sitting close by and said to the person wanting to use the loo that I thought someone was hiding in there, whereupon the gentleman went off to find the guard. After a minute the youth appeared, and slumped quickly down in a spare seat, keeping his head bowed. His mates and he then hastily departed at the next station. The three of them were giggling and smirking, so it was fairly obvious what was going on.

The train was quite busy, but everyone including myself turned a blind eye on the basis of not wanting to get involved, but now I wonder whether I should have said something to the guard. No doubt this sort of thing happens all the time, but it doesn't make it acceptable.

 

[Moonshot]

Comments from rail staff welcome too!

I was on a train today, when three lads (20-ish I suppose) boarded and one of them immediately locked himself in the toilet, where he remained for some 20 minutes, until another passenger started banging on the door (it was a two-coach train with only one toilet).

I was sitting close by and said to the person wanting to use the loo that I thought someone was hiding in there, whereupon the gentleman went off to find the guard. After a minute the youth appeared, and slumped quickly down in a spare seat, keeping his head bowed. His mates and he then hastily departed at the next station. The three of them were giggling and smirking, so it was fairly obvious what was going on.

The train was quite busy, but everyone including myself turned a blind eye on the basis of not wanting to get involved, but now I wonder whether I should have said something to the guard. No doubt this sort of thing happens all the time, but it doesn't make it right.

Its an occupational hazard in our job i m afraid......

 

[trainophile]

Its an occupational hazard in our job i m afraid......

So generally speaking you (I assume you're a guard?) would rather not be told, as that would put you in a difficult position?

 

[Moonshot]

So generally speaking you (I assume you're a guard?) would rather not be told, as that would put you in a difficult position?

My way of working is to be as pro active as i can in getting out there and collecting fares ( I love the commission incentive ) , so in general I spot these charecters anyway.....

There was an instance a few weeks ago which will interest you.....I happened to come across a lady who was doing what the conductors call " The Ticket Dance " .....ie searching herself and belongings for a ticket. I could see she was getting stressed , but as her destination was 45 mins away, I told her i would check back with her later to see if she had found it.

So as I walk up the train, another lady who had observed this collared me and said " That woman is conning you - she is a fare dodger" . So I carried on up the train regardless and came back some 5 mins later......the " Ticket Dance Lady " still hadnt found her ticket ( it was actually a yearly pass she couldnt find ) , so agreed to buy a single ticket for the journey she was making. So as you can see, occassionally things might not seem what they appear to the eye....but in general this is rare.

 

[jopsuk]

Greater Anglia, who have a lot of DOO services, have a text number that you can anonymously report suspected dodgers to- the idea being that an RPI gets an alert and intercepts the train, or the guard is alerted

 

[trainophile]

I've seen that on Merseyrail too - the passenger's destination is a few stops away so the guard says he'll come back, then surprisingly the passenger realises he doesn't actually want to go the distance stated, and hops off at the next stop :roll: . It was a bit of a giveaway as the guy didn't even know how much he'd paid for the ticket he'd allegedly only just bought, and then promptly lost.

Today's train was Northern, but I expect all TOCs have their share of people with no intention of paying .

Perhaps toilets should have a machine fitted like those at station barriers, so you have to put a valid ticket in it to get the door to open .
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Greater Anglia, who have a lot of DOO services, have a text number that you can anonymously report suspected dodgers to- the idea being that an RPI gets an alert and intercepts the train, or the guard is alerted

You'd need a good supply of RPIs to work that system generally I imagine!

 

[Moonshot]

I've seen that on Merseyrail too - the passenger's destination is a few stops away so the guard says he'll come back, then surprisingly the passenger realises he doesn't actually want to go the distance stated, and hops off at the next stop :roll: . It was a bit of a giveaway as the guy didn't even know how much he'd paid for the ticket he'd allegedly only just bought, and then promptly lost.

Today's train was Northern, but I expect all TOCs have their share of people with no intention of paying .

Perhaps toilets should have a machine fitted like those at station barriers, so you have to put a valid ticket in it to get the door to open .
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You'd need a good supply of RPIs to work that system generally I imagine!

Or maybe just have no toilets at all........which will antagonize a few on here , but at least it would be one less place for a fare dodger to hide.

 

[455driver]

Or maybe just have no toilets at all........which will antagonize a few on here , but at least it would be one less place for a fare dodger to hide.

As the scummers have found out in the Ascot to Guildford line since the 456s have taken over!

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Perhaps toilets should have a machine fitted like those at station barriers, so you have to put a valid ticket in it to get the door to open .

I foresee a new class of moans:
"What do you mean my ticket isn't valid - it opened the toilet door no problem didn't it?"

 

[dysonsphere]

The question is if you report someone you become a witness and may have to appear in court as such, you have that time to waste most people don't. (assuming the person goes not guilty)

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Comments from rail staff welcome too!

I was on a train today, when three lads (20-ish I suppose) boarded and one of them immediately locked himself in the toilet, where he remained for some 20 minutes, until another passenger started banging on the door (it was a two-coach train with only one toilet).

I was sitting close by and said to the person wanting to use the loo that I thought someone was hiding in there, whereupon the gentleman went off to find the guard. After a minute the youth appeared, and slumped quickly down in a spare seat, keeping his head bowed. His mates and he then hastily departed at the next station. The three of them were giggling and smirking, so it was fairly obvious what was going on.

The train was quite busy, but everyone including myself turned a blind eye on the basis of not wanting to get involved, but now I wonder whether I should have said something to the guard. No doubt this sort of thing happens all the time, but it doesn't make it acceptable.

All assumption and speculation - where is the proof and hard evidence ? On occassion people get the 'raven shytes' which may lead them to spend longer than usual in a toilet.
Giggling and smirking is the big 'giveaway' ? Maybe they were on ecstasy ? maybe there was something else that amused them - you just don't know. What you are actually saying is that there were people you didn't like the look of and that was what was not 'acceptable'.

 

[richw]

No I wouldn't. How do you tell if it's plain tomfoolery and they have a ticket in their pocket just because they are smirking. Maybe there was something amusing in their day.

 

[trainophile]

All assumption and speculation - where is the proof and hard evidence ? On occassion people get the 'raven shytes' which may lead them to spend longer than usual in a toilet.
Giggling and smirking is the big 'giveaway' ? Maybe they were on ecstasy ? maybe there was something else that amused them - you just don't know. What you are actually saying is that there were people you didn't like the look of and that was what was not 'acceptable'.

No I wouldn't. How do you tell if it's plain tomfoolery and they have a ticket in their pocket just because they are smirking. Maybe there was something amusing in their day.

Sorry, I appear to have touched some nerves here.

You are quite correct that it is just speculation, however the lads initially sat in the row of seats immediately in front of me, and proceeded to stare over the back of their seats, and one comment I heard was "he's down the other end", before the middle one jumped up and made for the toilet. The remaining two then moved to the front of the coach - I thought they might be winding their friend up by pretending they had got off the train at Wigan, but I have no idea why they moved really - it just added to the impression that something dubious was going on.

But I was probably wrong, and no-one ever dodges paying a train fare, and no-one should be suspected of doing so.

 

[richw]

Sorry, I appear to have touched some nerves here.

You are quite correct that it is just speculation, however the lads initially sat in the row of seats immediately in front of me, and proceeded to stare over the back of their seats, and one comment I heard was "he's down the other end", before the middle one jumped up and made for the toilet. The remaining two then moved to the front of the coach - I thought they might be winding their friend up by pretending they had got off the train at Wigan, but I have no idea why they moved really - it just added to the impression that something dubious was going on.

But I was probably wrong, and no-one ever dodges paying a train fare, and no-one should be suspected of doing so.

Are you putting yourself in danger doing so? Are they going to attack you when you get off? Are they armed? I certainly wouldn't put myself at any risk interfering, leave it to the staff trained to do the job correctly.

 

[ic250]

I'm afraid my sympathy with fare dodgers increases exponentially each year when I have to renew my season ticket, or buy a ticket to any destination on an inter-city train for that matter. The railways are rapidly becoming a rich man's toy, to the detriment of their role as a public service. Obviously I don't approve of those breaking the law, but neither do I have much sympathy for train operators, or to be frank for the commission-primed 'revenue protection officers' (brilliant doublespeak).

The government has decided that the top rate of income tax should be lowered from 50% to 45%, as the thinking is that a lower rate will lead to less evasion and more tax being collected. If this is the case, why not apply this rule to the railways? One rule for them, I think.

 

[Moonshot]

I'm afraid my sympathy with fare dodgers increases exponentially each year when I have to renew my season ticket, or buy a ticket to any destination on an inter-city train for that matter. The railways are rapidly becoming a rich man's toy, to the detriment of their role as a public service. Obviously I don't approve of those breaking the law, but neither do I have much sympathy for train operators, or to be frank for the commission-primed 'revenue protection officers' (brilliant doublespeak).

The government has decided that the top rate of income tax should be lowered from 50% to 45%, as the thinking is that a lower rate will lead to less evasion and more tax being collected. If this is the case, why not apply this rule to the railways? One rule for them, I think.

Wouldnt lowering the rate of tax also increase peoples discretionary spending power......maybe spending on off peak tickets for a day out?

 

[trainophile]

I'd be surprised if those in the top rate tax band are the ones most likely to dodge a £5 train fare!

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Despite being the low-life scum fare-dodgers are, I would personally not get involved in the matter.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Sorry, I appear to have touched some nerves here.

You are quite correct that it is just speculation, however the lads initially sat in the row of seats immediately in front of me, and proceeded to stare over the back of their seats, and one comment I heard was "he's down the other end", before the middle one jumped up and made for the toilet. The remaining two then moved to the front of the coach - I thought they might be winding their friend up by pretending they had got off the train at Wigan, but I have no idea why they moved really - it just added to the impression that something dubious was going on.

But I was probably wrong, and no-one ever dodges paying a train fare, and no-one should be suspected of doing so.

None of what you have said would stand up in a court of law. Unless they are challenged and proven not to have a valid ticket then nobody can say otherwise. If you named the train and time which could practically identify the individuals concerned and they subsequently produced valid tickets they may even be able to cite this thread as libellous or a defamation of their character.

 

[jon0844]

Surely fare evasion helps increase season ticket prices?

 

[trainophile]

Despite being the low-life scum fare-dodgers are, I would personally not get involved in the matter.

Thank you Alex - I'm glad I didn't now, and will take the same view next time.

 

[Darren R]

I'm afraid my sympathy with fare dodgers increases exponentially each year when I have to renew my season ticket, or buy a ticket to any destination on an inter-city train for that matter.....

Of course it could be argued that part of the reason behind price increases is fare-dodging.

Just a thought!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Of course it could be argued that part of the reason behind price increases is fare-dodging.

Just a thought!

Just as part of the reason behind fare dodging is increased prices

 

[muz379]

Never had a fare dodger reported to me , but the thing is sometimes to be able to effectively do anything about the fare dodger would incur a delay to the service . And I doubt the person reporting or any other traveling passenger would want the service to be delayed whilst I argue with / ring the BTP and await there arrival over a £2.50 fare .

Fare dodgers do annoy me , both as a train guard , and before that as a traveling member of the public . But unfortunately sometimes letting it slide so that the train can keep moving and carry the fare paying majority to its destination is the easiest solution

 

[trainophile]

None of what you have said would stand up in a court of law. Unless they are challenged and proven not to have a valid ticket then nobody can say otherwise. If you named the train and time which could practically identify the individuals concerned and they subsequently produced valid tickets they may even be able to cite this thread as libellous or a defamation of their character.

I can't help feeling Neighbourhood Watch would never have taken off if everyone had this outlook, and Crimewatch wouldn't be worth screening .

I deliberately didn't mention the train or the time - the route can be identified from the info given, and if anyone wanted to check my previous posts for my regular journeys, but I'm leaving the actual time (it's an hourly service ) to be guessed at.
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Never had a fare dodger reported to me , but the thing is sometimes to be able to effectively do anything about the fare dodger would incur a delay to the service . And I doubt the person reporting or any other traveling passenger would want the service to be delayed whilst I argue with / ring the BTP and await there arrival over a £2.50 fare .

Fare dodgers do annoy me , both as a train guard , and before that as a traveling member of the public . But unfortunately sometimes letting it slide so that the train can keep moving and carry the fare paying majority to its destination is the easiest solution

In this case, the guard could simply have sold him a ticket on the spot, assuming the guy or his mates had any money. No criminality involved in a fair (no pun intended) cop!

 

[muz379]

In this case, the guard could simply have sold him a ticket on the spot, assuming the guy or his mates had any money. No criminality involved in a fair (no pun intended) cop!

Assuming they have money and are willing to part with it to buy a ticket .

What do you do if they claim not to have any money , or refuse to buy a ticket , claim that you have already seen it and now they cant find it , claim they have left it in the ticket office/ticket barrier /dropped it at the station ?

 

[trainophile]

Assuming they have money and are willing to part with it to buy a ticket .

What do you do if they claim not to have any money , or refuse to buy a ticket , claim that you have already seen it and now they cant find it , claim they have left it in the ticket office/ticket barrier /dropped it at the station ?

I suppose it's not worth getting stressed about, is what it boils down to. Trouble is, if people see others getting away with it, even if it's only a strong suspicion, it sends the wrong message both about lack of enforcement and "so why did I bother to buy one?".

It the same with the feet-on-seats bylaw - I've never seen this taken further than a brief gesture in passing to the offender to remove them. Makes a bit of a mockery of all the strongly worded warning signs.

 

[Moonshot]

Never had a fare dodger reported to me , but the thing is sometimes to be able to effectively do anything about the fare dodger would incur a delay to the service . And I doubt the person reporting or any other traveling passenger would want the service to be delayed whilst I argue with / ring the BTP and await there arrival over a £2.50 fare .

Fare dodgers do annoy me , both as a train guard , and before that as a traveling member of the public . But unfortunately sometimes letting it slide so that the train can keep moving and carry the fare paying majority to its destination is the easiest solution

And therein lies the answer to a problem we face .....the average fare paid for a Northern rail journey is £2.28 , a delay costs Northern Rail £70 per minute.

 

[muz379]

And therein lies the answer to a problem we face .....the average fare paid for a Northern rail journey is £2.28 , a delay costs Northern Rail £70 per minute.

Exactly

that's for an hour as well , id hazard a guess that attributable knock on delays from say causing a delay at the likes of Manchester Piccadilly could run into several hours

Not to mention if a staff member is involved in a confrontation with a passenger then you might have the costs of cancelling that train , chain of care , and the time that staff member spends non productive as a result of the incident .
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I suppose it's not worth getting stressed about, is what it boils down to. Trouble is, if people see others getting away with it, even if it's only a strong suspicion, it sends the wrong message both about lack of enforcement and "so why did I bother to buy one?".

It the same with the feet-on-seats bylaw - I've never seen this taken further than a brief gesture in passing to the offender to remove them. Makes a bit of a mockery of all the strongly worded warning signs.

Dont get me wrong I report fare dodgers I see , and if I did spot a persistent fare dodger I would report it to control and the BTP officers I see on the trains I work so that they could arrange to intercept the offender . but there and then Guards are pretty powerless .

 

[VisualAcid]

I usually don't unless I feel safe about it really. Recently travelled from Cheltenham to Bristol on XC, one toilet was occupied the whole time and the other out of order. As we approached Bristol 3 chav teenagers appeared and shouted abuse at me, so I ran ahead and told the RPI's, only for them to realise and cause a stir and getting the BTP involved . Well deserved arrest IMO.