Passengers who spread over two seats

[TUC]

I don't see what the fuss is about.

If the seats aren't reserved, then they have a right to use them even if they should be limited to one seat. If they're asked to move from the seats they've 'spread' themselves over, then they should move.

People who complain about this need to realise that there is no obligation on the part of the person who's taken the seat to be limited to 'that' seat, and all it takes is a polite question.

Not a bloody moan on a public forum.
:roll:

But what I was talking about in the OP was people who've spread their bodies over two seats and make no attempt to move themselves back in even when you sit down. That shouldn't be reliant on the passenger to ask them to move in. It should be obvious to them as basic manners.

 

[cjp]

I don't see what the fuss is about.

If the seats aren't reserved, then they have a right to use them even if they should be limited to one seat. If they're asked to move from the seats they've 'spread' themselves over, then they should move.

People who complain about this need to realise that there is no obligation on the part of the person who's taken the seat to be limited to 'that' seat, and all it takes is a polite question.

Not a bloody moan on a public forum.
:roll:

I think it is known as using something or taking something that one has not paid for unless there really is a right as you suggest.
I, for one, believe that you are wrong in your suggestion.

And one should not need to be asked to move they should just be civilised.

The modern day protest "I have a right etc" - well sometimes you do but often you don't have what is claimed as as a right.

 

[meridian2]

Yes but the underlying assertion in this thread is that buying a ticket means you have a right to a seat. All you have a 'right' to is the usage of that particular train on that service.
The people who moan and say 'they should just be civilised' are just as bad as those that spread themselves over 6 seats, simply because neither side are willing to ask the other for some sort of compromise.
People aren't telepathic. If I've spread my newspapers and laptop over 3 seats and someone comes along and just rubbernecks, I'm going to ignore them.

 

[TUC]

And one should not need to be asked to move they should just be civilised.

That's the issue. I'll place things on adjacent seats if there's room but as soon as we approach a station I'll move them, especially if the train is getting full, and then put them back if the seat in't taken. People shouldn't have to ask passengers to move bags. They should have already done so as a matter of courtesy.

 

[JohnB57]

People aren't telepathic. If I've spread my newspapers and laptop over 3 seats and someone comes along and just rubbernecks, I'm going to ignore them.

It's not telepathy that's needed, it's empathy. If you can't see without being told that the seats or table you're hogging are needed by someone else, you're the one with the problem.

Sadly, it's part of modern life that those who are in the wrong are able to rationalise it as someone else's fault. Civilisation is becoming less civil.

 

[fowler9]

It's not telepathy that's needed, it's empathy. If you can't see without being told that the seats or table you're hogging are needed by someone else, you're the one with the problem.

Sadly, it's part of modern life that those who are in the wrong are able to rationalise it as someone else's fault. Civilisation is becoming less civil.

Spot on mate. Its all down to empathy and manners, of which some people are sadly lacking. No one has paid for a seat unless they have one reserved.

 

[meridian2]

It's not telepathy that's needed, it's empathy. If you can't see without being told that the seats or table you're hogging are needed by someone else, you're the one with the problem.

Sadly, it's part of modern life that those who are in the wrong are able to rationalise it as someone else's fault. Civilisation is becoming less civil.

But it works both ways. If you can't be bothered to ask, I can't be held to account. For all I know, you're just standing in the aisle to let someone through.

 

[JohnB57]

But it works both ways. If you can't be bothered to ask, I can't be held to account. For all I know, you're just standing in the aisle to let someone through.

As I said...

Sadly, it's part of modern life that those who are in the wrong are able to rationalise it as someone else's fault.

 

[fowler9]

But it works both ways. If you can't be bothered to ask, I can't be held to account. For all I know, you're just standing in the aisle to let someone through.

Ah come on mate. Some people have medical conditions which mean they have a complete lack of awareness of what is going on around them. Others are just ignorant and selfish.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Spot on mate. Its all down to empathy and manners, of which some people are sadly lacking. No one has paid for a seat unless they have one reserved.

I have had experiences in the past with Arriva Trains Wales where seat reservations have been pre-booked when the tickets were ordered, then embarked at Hereford and at Ludlow only to find that no reservation cards have been placed in the seat holders to show that they had been reserved and people sat in them (not blaming the passengers, as they would not have had sight of the missing cards).

 

[cjp]

....
People aren't telepathic. If I've spread my newspapers and laptop over 3 seats and someone comes along and just rubbernecks, I'm going to ignore them.

If you know they are there (so you can ignore them) why not consider offering then one of seats you have taken over?
They might be shy and fearful of one who has already pigged out on three seats.

 

[JohnB57]

If you know they are there (so you can ignore them) why not consider offering then one of seats you have taken over?
They might be shy and fearful of one who has already pigged out on three seats.

Or just dazzled by the reflection from the brass neck.

 

[meridian2]

Ah come on mate. Some people have medical conditions which mean they have a complete lack of awareness of what is going on around them. Others are just ignorant and selfish.

Then they need to make it clear to me that they have a medical condition and then I'll do everything I can to help them by moving out of the way. If someone comes along and is in a wheelchair, then I will gladly move if they require the space I'm taking up.
And please stop abusing the word 'ignorant'. Ignorant is when if I'm asked to move I simply ignore them, or I couldn't care less if they have a walking stick or zimmer frame, despite it being on view.

 

[JohnB57]

And please stop abusing the word 'ignorant'. Ignorant is when if I'm asked to move I simply ignore them, or I couldn't care less if they have a walking stick or zimmer frame, despite it being on view.

No, the abuse is yours. In this context, ignorant simply means general discourteous or rude behaviour, as fowler9 meant. Nothing as such to do with just ignoring someone. Clearly you were ignorant of that.

I'd walk away from this one if I were you - you've lost the argument on a number of levels and you're just looking silly.

 

[LowLevel]

The seat reservation is only valid if that seat is labelled. If it's not you have no recourse to move the occupant - the correct advice is that you can claim compensation off the train operator if you can't find any seat.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The opposite side of the 'sprawling' passenger problem is the type of passenger who decides to sit next to you even though there are lots of empty pairs of seats. It is as a defence against such people that I employ the sprawling tactic.

These people annoy me as much as those who take up more space than they're entitled to. Then again, there's nothing more humiliating than being on a bus or train that's slowly filling up, so you clear your belongings from the seat next to you and watch every other seat fill up except that one!

On our return journey on a Class 185 from Poulton-le-Fylde to Manchester Piccadilly yesterday, my wife and I were fortunate to obtain two seats next to each other at a table seat position and opposite to us was sat a young business-woman in her mid 20's (worked for a legal practice from what was scattered over the table) who sat in the aisle seat and had stowed her leather business document case and coat on the seat next to the window, despite the overhead luggage section being totally empty. She then compounded matters by opening up a rather large sized laptop on the table which filled the table opposite to me and proceeded to fill the rest of the table with her paperwork.

Needless to say, when the refreshment trolley arrived, my wife and I ordered hot drinks and something to eat and the young female opposite really looked put-out when I said that we needed the space to place the food and drink on the table and insisted that we were allowed space to allow this to happen. A comment to the effect that "Don't you realise I have important work to prepare" was one that I found no difficulty in responding to in my usual scathing verbal method that was honed to perfection in dealing with the young professional staff that were under my benign dictatorship in the last thirty years of my business life, which always seems to have the desired effect of pricking the bubble of pomposity exuded by those young professionals who tend to assume an air of superiority.

I have the feeling that the blushes that suddenly invaded her cheeks betrayed her acute embarrassment after my verbal riposte and the sudden closing of the laptop and the use of the overhead storage facility by her showed that my point had been well made and a lesson in politeness had been well learnt. She left the train at Preston, never uttering another word to us.

WHAT! You were on a TPE service and the refreshment trolley could get down the train? It seems miracles DO happen!

 

[TUC]

Then they need to make it clear to me that they have a medical condition and then I'll do everything I can to help them by moving out of the way. If someone comes along and is in a wheelchair, then I will gladly move if they require the space I'm taking up.
And please stop abusing the word 'ignorant'. Ignorant is when if I'm asked to move I simply ignore them, or I couldn't care less if they have a walking stick or zimmer frame, despite it being on view.

The point is that the simple fact that if someone is standing and you are taking up an unoccupied seat that should be sufficient to make you move your things. It should be reliant on the other person having the self-confidence to make you do the only right thing to do.

 

[fowler9]

Not correct - the seat reservation is only valid if that seat is labelled. If it's not you have no recourse to move the occupant - the correct advice is that you can claim compensation off the train operator if you can't find any seat.

Excellent customer service. You reserve a seat and if there isn't a bit of cardboard stuck in the back of the seat you can make a claim and try prove it was yours yourself after standing for the journey. Does that mean I can also get on a train at Lime Street, remove the card saying it is reserved from Manchester and say tough sh*t to the person who gets on at Piccadilly because there is no card there?

 

[yorkie]

I have had experiences in the past with Arriva Trains Wales where seat reservations have been pre-booked when the tickets were ordered, then embarked at Hereford and at Ludlow only to find that no reservation cards have been placed in the seat holders to show that they had been reserved and people sat in them (not blaming the passengers, as they would not have had sight of the missing cards).

If reservation labels are not displayed, that means reservations are not in force. The train then becomes like any other non-reserved train; ie sit anywhere and as always people in particular need of sitting should be given priority.

Some operators will refund a passenger who reserved a seat, if their seat is not reserved and no alternative seat can be found.

... the seat reservation is only valid if that seat is labelled. If it's not you have no recourse to move the occupant - the correct advice is that you can claim compensation off the train operator if you can't find any seat.

Indeed.

 

[alastair]

Excellent customer service. You reserve a seat and if there isn't a bit of cardboard stuck in the back of the seat you can make a claim and try prove it was yours yourself after standing for the journey. Does that mean I can also get on a train at Lime Street, remove the card saying it is reserved from Manchester and say tough sh*t to the person who gets on at Piccadilly because there is no card there?

This subject was debated on this forum at enormous length only a few months ago and I am sure the advice that Lowlevel has given is correct.If you have reserved a seat and there is no lable on it then you should first seek help from the Guard/TM. They have the discretion to upgrade you to first if there are no other seats available.

As to you removing the lable,well there is nothing to stop you,should you wish to stoop that low, but I believe that tampering with a lable is itself an offence for which you could be fined/prosecuted.

Down here in SWT-land,we have a very simple solution-there are no reserved seats!

 

[TUC]

This subject was debated on this forum at enormous length only a few months ago and I am sure the advice that Lowlevel has given is correct.If you have reserved a seat and there is no lable on it then you should first seek help from the Guard/TM. They have the discretion to upgrade you to first if there are no other seats available.

As to you removing the lable,well there is nothing to stop you,should you wish to stoop that low, but I believe that tampering with a lable is itself an offence for which you could be fined/prosecuted.

Down here in SWT-land,we have a very simple solution-there are no reserved seats!

I know that the above is technically correct but I still find it hard to understand why a customer's seat reservation coupon should not be, as a matter of policy, accepted as perfectly valid confirmation of a reservaition.

 

[fowler9]

This subject was debated on this forum at enormous length only a few months ago and I am sure the advice that Lowlevel has given is correct.If you have reserved a seat and there is no lable on it then you should first seek help from the Guard/TM. They have the discretion to upgrade you to first if there are no other seats available.

As to you removing the lable,well there is nothing to stop you,should you wish to stoop that low, but I believe that tampering with a lable is itself an offence for which you could be fined/prosecuted.

Down here in SWT-land,we have a very simple solution-there are no reserved seats!

Apologies mate. I didn't intend to question Lowlevels knowledge at all and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I also wouldn't dream of taking someones seat reservaton off the seat. I swear down to you I would be the last person to take the mick on the railways. I was surprised at the rules and put it across in a bad way.

 

[Tomnick]

Looking at it the other way, I'd be mightily dischuffed if I'd found myself what looked like a nice unreserved seat, only to be turfed out later by someone who'd actually reserved it - especially if the genuinely unreserved seats had all filled up in the meantime! I appreciate the reservation holder's frustration in that case, but really think that a free for all is the fairest approach!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Looking at it the other way, I'd be mightily dischuffed if I'd found myself what looked like a nice unreserved seat, only to be turfed out later by someone who'd actually reserved it - especially if the genuinely unreserved seats had all filled up in the meantime! I appreciate the reservation holder's frustration in that case, but really think that a free for all is the fairest approach!

Been there, had that argument, and refused to move - to much unhappiness from the aggrieved party. I did explain that he could apply for a full refund of the fee that he had paid for his seat reservation as it had not been honoured....

The train was from North Wales to London with no electronic reservations showing or cardboard labels inserted. Reasonably busy leaving Llandudno Junction, full and standing when it left Chester - where the reservation situation arose.

I had sympathy but, at the end of the day, there were no reservations displayed. The person who had reserved the seat was younger than me and had no (visible) need for the seat. If it had been an elderly, frail, pregnant or clearly disabled person then I would have been straight out of the seat, even if they had had no reservation - merely a greater need than my own.

On the other hand, I've boarded TPE trains at Manchester Piccadilly heading for Scotland (with a seat reservation) and not bothered even trying to fight my way through the packed train to see if someone has sat in my reserved seat. Generally, you get a seat eventually after Bolton or Preston calls.

On the subject of the thread. I was on a Virgin train south from Piccadilly last weekend. I sat in one seat of four around a table. A young woman sat on the opposite seat and filled the adjacent seat with her stuff - nothing bulky, merely to fill the second seat. A man arrived, asked her politely if he could sit down, she simply picked up all her stuff and moved further down the train. Clearly she simply had to have two seats to herself!

Nowt so queer as folk.

 

[Flamingo]

If no reservations at all are put out, then Lowlevels advice is correct.

If I'm called to sort out a dispute where all other reservations are present, but the four at the table have magically disappeared, then the people who hold the reservations will be given those seats, the people now occupying the seats will have to find others...

 

[LowLevel]

Apologies mate. I didn't intend to question Lowlevels knowledge at all and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I also wouldn't dream of taking someones seat reservaton off the seat. I swear down to you I would be the last person to take the mick on the railways. I was surprised at the rules and put it across in a bad way.

Don't worry about it - I'm not saying the rules are always fair, I'm just saying what they are.

I also take the same position as my colleagues that if some specific labels have 'vanished' that will be dealt with.

If however I've de-reserved the train (which can happen during disruption), or the reservation printer/train computer have gone bang and de-reserved it for me, then it's up to my employer to compensate.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

..... or the reservation printer/train computer have gone bang and de-reserved it for me, then it's up to my employer to compensate.

The matter of problems with the printer that actually prints these reservation cards/labels (what exactly is the correct railway terminology ?) was cited when I reported both the incidents at Ludlow and at Hereford to Arriva Trains Wales, in their subsequent letters to me.

 

[34D]

I came across a pair of these. I was happily sat on a FGW 158 reading a magazine on an otherwise empty table. Pulled into Temple Meads, two business type ladies get on complete with coffee and pasta pots. Not a problem.

Once they've finished their pasta pots out comes the laptop, bag and the one opposite me wants to use a full size keyboard and mouse. Does she ask if its ok? Course not, just encroaches on me.

My properly British passive aggressive tendencies kick in. Suddenly I need to read my magazine laying flat on the table and I make sure my legs are just enough in the way to be irritating but not obvious. And so we continued all the way to Salisbury.

Why were you sat at a table of four if there was just you? Don't you think that's selfish?

 

[overtonchris]

Had a trip to London yesterday and the biggest woman I've ever seen (honestly) lumbered onto the 378 I was on. Now, my wife has a couple of horses and their rear ends looked positively pert compared with this lady. Needless to say the two seats that she needed to accommodate her just disappeared under her sheer bulk. I'm not a nasty person (usually) but any compassion I might have felt for her "condition" totally disappeared as she put her skanky trainers up on the opposing seat. Disgusting.

As a side thought....I'm still wondering how she got through the barriers - gate job I suppose......

 

[ralphchadkirk]

This is why I like to drive, I don't have to put up with all the self righteous indignation displayed here. Whilst I agree someone should move items on another seat or table if asked politely, I see no reason why someone on their own shouldn't sit at a table if they want to, or use the full size of the table if nobody else is.

And telling someone they've lost the argument is a pretty poor way of trying to convince yourself that, somehow, you've "won". I am entirely in agreement with meridian2.