Passengers locked on TPE train at Warrington Central (12/08)

[lyndhurst25]

This incident happened to me late last night at Warrington Central. I was waiting to board the train, so I only really know half the story, but it seems odd what happened.

A TransPennine service arrived at the platform; people were standing at the doors waiting to get off and on; and then nothing happened. The doors stayed locked and people were just left staring in, wondering what the problem was. The driver and guard didn't lean out or get out to explain what was happening. There are no station announcements. After around 15 minutes someone pulled an emergency door release handle, allowing everyone one who wanted to to get off or on.

When we finally got underway the on-train announcement apologised got the delay and explaind that it was due to an abusive passenger on-board and waiting for the police to arrive at Warrington to deal with them. The police hadn't arrived by the time someone pulled the door release, and apparently the abusive passenger was one of the ones who got off.

I'm all for abusive passengers getting their collars felt and I understand that the guard may have been busy dealing with the situation but I'm thinking that keeping all the doors locked all this time was a bad idea. I wonder why it happened?

 

[grumblingalong]

I've done it, for a drugged up nutcase who was picking a fight with the interior of a 170. I did however inform the train via the PA that we had "developed a fault with the doors that means they will stay shut for some time while the driver and I resolve the issue" Bingo. Even the nutter fell for it.

 

[BestWestern]

I'm not at all surprised somebody went for the egress; I'd expect most to do the same. Detaining a trainload of passengers against their will is a risky business, and has previously led to very serious possibilities of the Guard being prosecuted for false imprisonment. I saw it done fairly recently on slam door stock, with the predictable result that the individual concerned climbed through a droplight window and legged it.

If somebody really needs to be met by the police, the best course of action is to arrange for the train to be held at a signal outside the station until it is confirmed that police are waiting. In that situation, there is no suggestion of any wrongdoing on the part of the traincrew. Of course, that may or may not be practical, and it still requires a cool head to conceal the real reasons, otherwise there is the risk of your 'offender' bailing out of the train and onto the live railway. Just locking everyone in once in the platform though is really not ideal, unless of course the police have requested it, which has happened.

 

[PHILIPE]

There was an incident at Mossend back in the early 90s when a diverted Euston to Glasgow loco dropped off the track at very slow speed on some chord line (not sure which now but believe track spread) about 2100 on a Sunday night. The BTP attended and declared it a crime scene, not allowing the train to be evacuated until approx midnight, Train full including parents and young children just wanting to get home. The BTP said they required to question all the passengers before anybody could leave the train. This story got out into the Media and BTP had to apologise and admit that they rather went over the top.

 

[infobleep]

This incident happened to me late last night at Warrington Central. I was waiting to board the train, so I only really know half the story, but it seems odd what happened.

A TransPennine service arrived at the platform; people were standing at the doors waiting to get off and on; and then nothing happened. The doors stayed locked and people were just left staring in, wondering what the problem was. The driver and guard didn't lean out or get out to explain what was happening. There are no station announcements. After around 15 minutes someone pulled an emergency door release handle, allowing everyone one who wanted to to get off or on.

When we finally got underway the on-train announcement apologised got the delay and explaind that it was due to an abusive passenger on-board and waiting for the police to arrive at Warrington to deal with them. The police hadn't arrived by the time someone pulled the door release, and apparently the abusive passenger was one of the ones who got off.

I'm all for abusive passengers getting their collars felt and I understand that the guard may have been busy dealing with the situation but I'm thinking that keeping all the doors locked all this time was a bad idea. I wonder why it happened?

I wonder if anyone missed their last connection home? Be it train or bus.


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[Kentish Paul]

There was an incident at Mossend back in the early 90s when a diverted Euston to Glasgow loco dropped off the track at very slow speed on some chord line (not sure which now but believe track spread) about 2100 on a Sunday night. The BTP attended and declared it a crime scene, not allowing the train to be evacuated until approx midnight, Train full including parents and young children just wanting to get home. The BTP said they required to question all the passengers before anybody could leave the train. This story got out into the Media and BTP had to apologise and admit that they rather went over the top.

Remember it well. I believe the driver was questioned at length when all he had done was apply the brake. The passengers were asked "did you see what happened?".

 

[Mugby]

Sounds as if one of the train crew contacted the BTP in the very forlorn hope that they would arrive promptly (if at all!)

 

[Dhassell]

Transpennine replied to the post on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/TPEassist/status/764404337137315841

Hi, this was due to a police incident and the police asked for the doors to remain locked. ^MM

 

[headshot119]

Sounds as if one of the train crew contacted the BTP in the very forlorn hope that they would arrive promptly (if at all!)

I have to say the BTP get a fairly bad reputation on this forum, and amongst train crew as well.

I've been on a couple of trains (and seen a few more arrive into Shrewsbury) where BTP have acted swiftly to detain violent offenders on arrival. Though admittedly Shrewsbury is a BTP base.

The problem is if you phone BTP when you need an offender taking off at Cefn Y Bydd BTP are never going to be nearby, you'd be far better off phoning civils to come out and deal with it.

 

[BestWestern]

Remember it well. I believe the driver was questioned at length when all he had done was apply the brake. The passengers were asked "did you see what happened?".

What on earth led to such a ludicrous course of action?!

 

[lyndhurst25]

I wonder if anyone missed their last connection home? Be it train or bus

I missed the 2254 and 2309 Northern Line connections from Liverpool South Parkway because of this delay, but was able to catch the 2324 last train of the day back home to Waterloo. Luckily MerseyRail run quite late into the evenings, otherwise it would have been TPE-funded taxi time. I wonder what time the police eventually turned up at Warrington Central and how long they expected TPE to keep everyone locked on board?

 

[bramling]

This incident happened to me late last night at Warrington Central. I was waiting to board the train, so I only really know half the story, but it seems odd what happened.

A TransPennine service arrived at the platform; people were standing at the doors waiting to get off and on; and then nothing happened. The doors stayed locked and people were just left staring in, wondering what the problem was. The driver and guard didn't lean out or get out to explain what was happening. There are no station announcements. After around 15 minutes someone pulled an emergency door release handle, allowing everyone one who wanted to to get off or on.

When we finally got underway the on-train announcement apologised got the delay and explaind that it was due to an abusive passenger on-board and waiting for the police to arrive at Warrington to deal with them. The police hadn't arrived by the time someone pulled the door release, and apparently the abusive passenger was one of the ones who got off.

I'm all for abusive passengers getting their collars felt and I understand that the guard may have been busy dealing with the situation but I'm thinking that keeping all the doors locked all this time was a bad idea. I wonder why it happened?

It's semi-normal practice if there's a problem person on board.

The difficulty is that BTP response times aren't predictable (even if they've given an ETA), so sometimes as in your example it can go wrong.

A difficulty trade-off to make, but from staff's point of view you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Do nothing and the problem person gets away with whatever they've done, wait for BTP and inconvenience other passengers. There's no right or wrong answer, but hopefully common sense should be used.

As posted elsewhere, the best thing is for an announcement to be made alluding to some kind of door problem.

 

[QueensCurve]

There was an incident at Mossend back in the early 90s when a diverted Euston to Glasgow loco dropped off the track at very slow speed...

Do you mean it was derailed?

 

[endecotp]

Imagine what would happen if you tried to do this in a shop or pub!

 

[Howardh]

Imagine what would happen if you tried to do this in a shop or pub!

Or a football ground!

 

[WatcherZero]

They do it all the time at football grounds, not letting one set of supporters leave until the other are clear.

 

[yorkie]

They do it all the time at football grounds, not letting one set of supporters leave until the other are clear.

They'd make sure everyone was made fully aware of it though. Is 15 minutes that common?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They'd make sure everyone was made fully aware of it though. Is 15 minutes that common?

It used to be par for the course at Stoke City's old Victoria Ground for visiting fans to be held back for up to half an hour. In those days, North Staffs Police weren't exactly family-friendly either!

 

[AlterEgo]

They'd make sure everyone was made fully aware of it though. Is 15 minutes that common?

Only once you're locked in by the police, yes. 15-30 minutes is fairly usual.

 

[Sprinter153]

I had to do exactly this recently after a man threatened myself and a number of passengers with a used drug needle. I was instructed to keep the doors closed in the platform as being held at the previous signal would have caused significant delay.

Myself and my driver announced it several times yet Twitter was awash with legions of expert keyboard warriors complaining I hadn't announced and it's 'holding passengers hostage' :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would object, and would use the egress, if you locked me on a train with someone who posed a risk to me.

OTOH I would happily assist in detaining said individual with a citizens arrest if asked politely.


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[Kentish Paul]

What on earth led to such a ludicrous course of action?!

Because the police declared it a crime scene. I think it was normal police as well as BTP. There was quite an uproar in the press at the time.

 

[headshot119]

I had to do exactly this recently after a man threatened myself and a number of passengers with a used drug needle. I was instructed to keep the doors closed in the platform as being held at the previous signal would have caused significant delay.

Myself and my driver announced it several times yet Twitter was awash with legions of expert keyboard warriors complaining I hadn't announced and it's 'holding passengers hostage' :roll:

I'm not saying it's the wrong decision, but I'm curious as to how that would fit in with the relevant companies "conflict avoidance" policy.

Certainly my previous employer had very strict guidance on not confining any employees or members of the public with a person who was a danger.

Though understandably a train environment is a bit different.

 

[Cowley]

I'm not saying it's the wrong decision, but I'm curious as to how that would fit in with the relevant companies "conflict avoidance" policy.

Certainly my previous employer had very strict guidance on not confining any employees or members of the public with a person who was a danger.

Though understandably a train environment is a bit different.

It does seem to be creating a more risky situation keeping violent people and potential victims of violence confined to a train with locked doors. I wonder how much compensation would be paid out to an innocent passenger who did get attacked in this situation?
Also if there were more than two people causing trouble then surely it would be very difficult for a guard to protect a train load of passengers and the safer option would be to get the problem people out of the train.
I'm full of admiration for people who do the job, I couldn't do it.

 

[LowLevel]

I once was instructed to lock down a train by BTP and ended up spending 40 plus minutes with the doors locked while 15 officers dealt with the aftermath of a fight and some more watched on the platform to grab anyone trying the egress. A less than pleasant experience and not something I'd choose to do unless I was directed to.

 

[jamesst]

I have to say the BTP get a fairly bad reputation on this forum, and amongst train crew as well.

I've been on a couple of trains (and seen a few more arrive into Shrewsbury) where BTP have acted swiftly to detain violent offenders on arrival. Though admittedly Shrewsbury is a BTP base.

The problem is if you phone BTP when you need an offender taking off at Cefn Y Bydd BTP are never going to be nearby, you'd be far better off phoning civils to come out and deal with it.

And it's well deserved too. If it's not a station I know they're based at I'll always ring civil police first, that's been learnt through many years of non appearing btp.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It used to be par for the course at Stoke City's old Victoria Ground for visiting fans to be held back for up to half an hour. In those days, North Staffs Police weren't exactly family-friendly either!

Never understood that. Let the locals out first so they can go home and get tooled up, then let the away supporters out. Surely you would let the away fans out first (fewer of them, no local knowledge, want to get home) and once they are away on their coaches / trains let the locals out?

 

[alexl92]

Question: Do they have to call the BTP for an incident? It seems to me that for any incident at a non-major station it would be far quicker to call the local constabulary.

As an example, I was chatting with a guard at Huddersfield last year about a bloke on a train who was known for making the same journey fairly reguarly late at night without bothering to buy a ticket, but as the bloke was a pretty big burly guy and the guard was a 5 foot-something lady she didn't feel able to challenge him over it. When I asked whether she could ask the BTP for assistance she said that becauase they'd have to come from Manchester or Leeds it wasn't worth the time or effort.

I know that's only a small thing but surely the regular police could deal with some rail-related things in some places? If there was an incident at Settle for example, it's over an hour by road from Leeds and an hour and a half from Manchester, the nearest BTP bases.

 

[AlterEgo]

Never understood that. Let the locals out first so they can go home and get tooled up, then let the away supporters out. Surely you would let the away fans out first (fewer of them, no local knowledge, want to get home) and once they are away on their coaches / trains let the locals out?

It's easier and better to keep 5,000 people locked in a corner of the stadium than keep 25,000 of your own supporters locked into three separate stands, that's why.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Iv observed regular police working crouds or minor incidents at Carlisle and other places, quite often the responding officers have a good relationship with the station staff and locally based traincrew.

Whilst I appreciate nany of these will be minor public order stuff along the lines of drunk guy doing the full monty, or just a big pee in the middle of the booking office it does seam many places employ common sense if there isnt a BTP outfit near.


I am wondering though why the driver couldnt have informed foalk on the platform by leaning out even if the grip was busy?