Passengers locked inside Hartlepool station

[andy33gmail]

Which is worse? Locking the station up knowing that a service with passengers still to arrive, or leaving the station unlocked so that said passengers would have a safe way out? Based on what we are lead to understand, the person locking up did so in full knowledge that passengers would arriving later. I'm sorry but if this is the case it is inexcusable, all they had to do was leave it open and perhaps make contact with their chain of command as soon as possible after to advise of their decision.

*If* it really was done knowingly, would that constitute false imprisonment?

This is where the railway system always seems daft. If it were run like a normal business, the station manager would hide the key & phone to driver to ask if he’d mind locking up once he terminates

 

[chrisjo]

the station manager would hide the key & phone to driver to ask if he’d mind locking up once he terminates

Not many stations have doormats these days - cue new thread, (but I was impressed to see carpets in the subway at Stonehaven recently).

 

[Dr Hoo]

*If* it really was done knowingly, would that constitute false imprisonment?

This is where the railway system always seems daft. If it were run like a normal business, the station manager would hide the key & phone to driver to ask if he’d mind locking up once he terminates

Quite. Living in an area with a large number of Air BnBs and also elderly residents needing care by mobile workers, the number of premises with code-operated key boxes is huge.

This sort of thing isn't exactly new. The original Mersey Railway didn't employ any staff who lived in Liverpool. The booking clerks at Central Low Level and James Street would close their office two minutes before the last train, lock the external doors from the inside and then join the last train home to Birkenhead.

It was also quite common for the guards of 'last trains' on country branch lines to extinguish the oil lamps at wayside halts before re-joining their train.

 

[nanstallon]

I don't think Hartlepool has staff in the evening, contracted or otherwise. So one presumes that the security guard will just be given a set of keys and a list of premises he or she has to lock up at a certain time. They'll turn up when they're told to turn up and lock up when they're told to lock up.

It's happened countless times with directly employed staff doing the same thing in the same situation, so it has nothing to do with outsourcing. It's unlikely to be a case of "walking off the job" either, their job will be to turn up at x time and lock the door. If nobody tells them otherwise (and where was Northern's control in all of this?), that is precisely what they will do.

The customers are such a nuisance.

 

[MadMac]

The customers are such a nuisance.

You are Basil Fawlty and I claim my five pounds.

 

[AndrewP]

Sounds like simple human error to me but very unfortunate for those involved

 

[Falcon1200]

Given that late running of trains is not exactly unknown, there must surely be a process to follow if a station is planned to be locked up and inaccessible in such circumstances?

 

[TUC]

I don't think Hartlepool has staff in the evening, contracted or otherwise. So one presumes that the security guard will just be given a set of keys and a list of premises he or she has to lock up at a certain time. They'll turn up when they're told to turn up and lock up when they're told to lock up.

It's happened countless times with directly employed staff doing the same thing in the same situation, so it has nothing to do with outsourcing. It's unlikely to be a case of "walking off the job" either, their job will be to turn up at x time and lock the door. If nobody tells them otherwise (and where was Northern's control in all of this?), that is precisely what they will do.

So Northern needs to tell them, or the firm which employs them, to do differently. Not difficult.

 

[Zamracene749]

It's possible that the security person had no idea that passengers would be effectively locked into the station.

The person may have come from somewhere other than the UK, or have no experience whatsoever of the railway.
In almost every other country in the world, if the station building is locked up on arrival you would simply walk along the tracks, perhaps cross them, then leave via the nearest path or roadway. We all know that is not a legal or safe option here.
But, would somebody with either no rail experience at all, or experience from a different culture understand that?

Perhaps the blame here lies not with the actual keyholder, but with the persons that worded and let the contract, and/or the firm that took on the contract?

 

[mpthomson]

Which would be illegal Fire Exits have to be clear and accessible.

If there was a fire, and all the exits were locked without a means of escaping, then Northern would be criminally prosecuted under the Fire Safety Order

There’s no legal requirement for fire exits to be unlocked (on a station or anywhere else) when there are no people, including staff, there. They must be unlocked when staff arrive however.

 

[TUC]

It's possible that the security person had no idea that passengers would be effectively locked into the station.

The person may have come from somewhere other than the UK, or have no experience whatsoever of the railway.
In almost every other country in the world, if the station building is locked up on arrival you would simply walk along the tracks, perhaps cross them, then leave via the nearest path or roadway. We all know that is not a legal or safe option here.
But, would somebody with either no rail experience at all, or experience from a different culture understand that?

Perhaps the blame here lies not with the actual keyholder, but with the persons that worded and let the contract, and/or the firm that took on the contract?

Perhaps. It still comes back to something that should be easy to fix.

However if, as seems to be the case here, the staff member was advised of the problem and still walked away, it is hard to see why anyone who cares about doing a decent job would do that.

 

[Killingworth]

132 posts and we've yet to hear the key holder's side to the story! The speculation may well be correct but at present the person concerned isn't getting a fair hearing.

 

[TUC]

132 posts and we've yet to hear the key holder's side to the story! The speculation may well be correct but at present the person concerned isn't getting a fair hearing.

Not sure what you expect us to do about that?

 

[sheff1]

132 posts and we've yet to hear the key holder's side to the story! The speculation may well be correct but at present the person concerned isn't getting a fair hearing.

I doubt the person is aware of this forum, never mind a member of it.

 

[greatkingrat]

I doubt the person is aware of this forum, never mind a member of it.

And even if they were, posting details here would almost certainly be in breach of their contract!

 

[nanstallon]

132 posts and we've yet to hear the key holder's side to the story! The speculation may well be correct but at present the person concerned isn't getting a fair hearing.

All very well to say that, but quite simply people should never be trapped in a locked up station. There is no excuse for it.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

It's possible that the security person had no idea that passengers would be effectively locked into the station.

The person may have come from somewhere other than the UK, or have no experience whatsoever of the railway.
In almost every other country in the world, if the station building is locked up on arrival you would simply walk along the tracks, perhaps cross them, then leave via the nearest path or roadway. We all know that is not a legal or safe option here.
But, would somebody with either no rail experience at all, or experience from a different culture understand that?

Perhaps the blame here lies not with the actual keyholder, but with the persons that worded and let the contract, and/or the firm that took on the contract?

Yes, let's blame immigrants with no basis in factual evidence. Why not? After all, we blame them for everything else. Put simply, this is racist garbage. Notice all the "it is possibles" and "mays" offered with no evidence whatsoever.

It's possible that the security person had no idea that passengers would be effectively locked into the station.

The person may have come from somewhere other than the UK, or have no experience whatsoever of the railway.
In almost every other country in the world, if the station building is locked up on arrival you would simply walk along the tracks, perhaps cross them, then leave via the nearest path or roadway. We all know that is not a legal or safe option here.
But, would somebody with either no rail experience at all, or experience from a different culture understand that?

 

[ModernRailways]

Yes, let's blame immigrants with no basis in factual evidence. Why not? After all, we blame them for everything else. Put simply, this is racist garbage. Notice all the "it is possibles" and "mays" offered with no evidence whatsoever.

Nationality definitely is not the issue. On my training course there were 3 white british people who had never stepped foot onto a train before, let alone knew about things such as the locking up of stations. It was a shock to me that someone would want to work in an industry they know absolutely nothing about other than what they’ve read in the media (pay).

I do know that some Northern stations that get locked up are done by an agency contractor who essentially works a night shift patrolling between multiple stations. They are given a set time to lock up certain stations and then patrol - usually in a car provided by agency. If they’ve not been made aware of a late running train they may lock up and leave only to return to the site whilst on their patrols and see people stuck. It has happened to me where we’ve been running late and the stations have been locked up and lights off, thankfully either myself or the guard have noticed and a quick call to control gets it sorted - on one occasion we were given a not to stop order because they already knew it would be locked up and key holder gone.

 

[andy33gmail]

Is there actually much to steal in a station? I guess alcohol from shops/pubs in a very small number - but they’ll have been separately lockex by their staff?

More about vandalism I guess, so the trains don’t all get a new livery?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

More about vandalism I guess, so the trains don’t all get a new livery?

Probably not a matter of trains, there aren't that many stations trains get stabled at overnight, but I've seen enough broken ticket machines, next train displays and various other things that all look like intentional damage.

 

[etr221]

I do know that some Northern stations that get locked up are done by an agency contractor who essentially works a night shift patrolling between multiple stations. They are given a set time to lock up certain stations and then patrol - usually in a car provided by agency. If they’ve not been made aware of a late running train they may lock up and leave only to return to the site whilst on their patrols and see people stuck.

My thought is that for stations like Hartlepool - where 'locking up' does render exit (and entry) impossible - there should be a requirement that for checking with control that the station can be locked up, or whether it's a case of come back later.

It is characteristic of the railway that it has a substantial reliance on multiple different people doing the 'right thing' without necessarily being aware of what others have done/are doing/will do, and so its procedures need to take account of this, so that people know they can do. This story is just another case of such procedures having failed...

 

[TUC]

My thought is that for stations like Hartlepool - where 'locking up' does render exit (and entry) impossible - there should be a requirement that for checking with control that the station can be locked up, or whether it's a case of come back later.

It is characteristic of the railway that it has a substantial reliance on multiple different people doing the 'right thing' without necessarily being aware of what others have done/are doing/will do, and so its procedures need to take account of this, so that people know they can do. This story is just another case of such procedures having failed...

I agree, but I do wonder how many procedures are needed to just check whether the last train has arrived?

 

[sprunt]

I've no evidence for this but my guess would be the cause of this is likely to be that nobody's given the keyholder any more detailed instructions than "go and lock the station up". I don't know who would be to blame for that, but I bet it wouldn't be the case if the keyholder were a TOC employee.

 

[cool110]

Is there actually much to steal in a station?

TVMs that accept cash

 

[SephenWorceste]

Could the last train not have stopped. On the basis of a message to the train crew, or standard practice when late. The passengers could have been taxied back or forward at the railways expense. Delay repay would also be paid. Nobody locked in and nobody having to stay behind after work. If all this is too expensive for the railway them they would have to arrange how to ensure the station is open for the last train.

 

[Zamracene749]

Yes, let's blame immigrants with no basis in factual evidence. Why not? After all, we blame them for everything else. Put simply, this is racist garbage. Notice all the "it is possibles" and "mays" offered with no evidence whatsoever.

How is that racist? Who cares if the person was an immigrant or not? If you take the time to read my statement, I'm saying that the person involved may not have realised that locking a station in the UK basically locks in travellers, BECAUSE, almost everywhere else, that would not be the case. And also, that there are many many people in the UK, born and bred, regardless of race. class or orientation that have no experience of the railways whatsoever. Virtue signal somewhere else please.

 

[GusB]

Agency staff are a disaster. They have no idea of customer service, and in my experience are unsuited to any work that involved dealing with people. I suppose they are cheaper than proper railway staff, and that is all that matters these days.

This simply isn't true and your assertion that agency staff are a disaster is quite unfair.

I've been employed by agencies to do the exactly the same job as directly employed staff and was required to deliver exactly the same level of customer service. It's often the case that agency staff deliver better customer service because they're trying to get a foot in the door in order to secure permanent employment.

The problem is that you're generally paid less and don't get to enjoy the same benefits as those who are directly employed; is it any wonder that there's no loyalty to the "mother" company?

If I was employed to lock a station up at a certain time and there was a late-running train, I'd want to know a) when it was likely to arrive and b) whether or not I'd be paid for that extra time. If not, I'd be fulfilling my contracted hours and no more.

Blame the system, not the staff.

 

[philthetube]

I meant more, a) leave station open, b) detrain at prior station, c) provide guard with instructions to assist with exit etc.

The one thing guaranteed to get a guards back up is to instruct them to do something which is not part of their duties, ask and you would get 99%cooperation in a situation like this, say to the crew, you will have to hang about for half an hour and help sort things out and you may not get the desired response.

 

[TheTallOne]

I agree, but I do wonder how many procedures are needed to just check whether the last train has arrived?

You have to be more explicit than that.

There was another example (I forgot where) where the last train had indeed arrived and gone.

The penultimate train however was very late, later than the last train, and...

 

[Horizon22]

The one thing guaranteed to get a guards back up is to instruct them to do something which is not part of their duties, ask and you would get 99%cooperation in a situation like this, say to the crew, you will have to hang about for half an hour and help sort things out and you may not get the desired response.

Did I say instruct? I was just paraphrasing the options.