ExRes
Established Member
If anyone ever tried to catch a Project Rio service based on livery then they're probably still trying to get home now
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Passengers getting confused by different TOCs or liveries.
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RailUK Forums
158747
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In 2006/7 between Salisbury and Southampton both South West Trains and First Great Western were operating former Trans Pennine Express 158s still in the former operator’s livery. SWT on local services and FGW on Cardiff - Portsmouth services.
Not quite the same thing, but my father and his wife were in Carlisle a couple of years ago and were wanting to make a trip down the settle - Carlisle line (or maybe it was the Cumbrian coast line) but they were unable to buy a ticket so couldn’t make the journey. When I asked him why he couldn’t buy a ticket he told me the ticket office at Carlisle was for virgin trains and he needed a ticket for Northern trains.
I told my dad he could have bought a ticket for northern trains (or any rail journey in the country) from the ticket office, but I am not sure he really believed me.
I told my dad he could have bought a ticket for northern trains (or any rail journey in the country) from the ticket office, but I am not sure he really believed me.
Strange, as the place is spelt Barnstaple.
The GWR removed place names from all their engines that had them, precisely for this reason. A group of ladies got on the wrong train with the engine having the place name for where they were destined, by mistake.
In September 2001 (I remember it because of the proximity to 9/11) I was coming from Leeds to Manchester and had a booked TPE first class ticket only to find myself on a standing room only rammed 142, so it probably wasn't that unusual!
Especially if the destination was Newburyness. Had to get that one in.
Killingworth
Established Member
I waa standing in a rammed full Northern Pacer in Platform 2C at Sheffield 3 or 4 years ago, held because the preceding TPE service was running late.
Harassed guard on platform is about to close doors when very smart lady in fur coat hurries up and very politely asks if this is the train for Manchester. He truthfully answered that it was and as soon as she was aboard closed the doors and we were off. Good service?
The look of horror on the ladies face was a picture as she saw the mass of heaving humanity, mostly outdoor backpackers. Where's the first Class? What, on this train? It's a tribute to Hope Valley users that she was quickly offered a seat.
Was there a back story? Had she just missed the TPE and been directed to this train? Whatever, it would have been interesting to hear how she described that journey.
As far as infrequent passengers are concerned a train is a train. The colour and name on the side is a secondary and confusing issue. On Hope Valley we have 4 colour schemes operating between Sheffield and Manchester at present.
Harassed guard on platform is about to close doors when very smart lady in fur coat hurries up and very politely asks if this is the train for Manchester. He truthfully answered that it was and as soon as she was aboard closed the doors and we were off. Good service?
The look of horror on the ladies face was a picture as she saw the mass of heaving humanity, mostly outdoor backpackers. Where's the first Class? What, on this train? It's a tribute to Hope Valley users that she was quickly offered a seat.
Was there a back story? Had she just missed the TPE and been directed to this train? Whatever, it would have been interesting to hear how she described that journey.
As far as infrequent passengers are concerned a train is a train. The colour and name on the side is a secondary and confusing issue. On Hope Valley we have 4 colour schemes operating between Sheffield and Manchester at present.
DustyBin
Established Member
I think you’re you’re absolutely right, I still find it surprising and slightly amusing however that somebody could think a pacer was operating an ECML service to Kings Cross. There’s a point at which common sense should tell you something is amiss (which in the example I gave it did, only after we’d set off though unfortunately!).
Gloster
Veteran Member
They still had a lot of place names: Castles, Halls, Granges...
If that’s the case it must be an insignificant number of people because it’s been this way for over 20 years.
I understand this is due to Merseytravel providing financial support for the staffing of all stations in their area between the first and last trains. It was also branded such in BR days. I don’t see an issue with Earlestown on the map myself.
The Wirral, Northern and City Lines names have existed long before Northern TOC. Again it must cause minimal if any confusion.
The only real possibilities of someone boarding a Northern TOC service thinking it represents the Northern Line that I can think of are Hunts Cross, Southport, Kirkby and Ormskirk but these instances must be insignificant. Ticket barriers and purchasing availability (daysaver not available to purchase at the likes of Huyton) should take care of other routes/stations.
Aictos
Established Member
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To muddy the waters even more, West Midlands Trains has two sub brands that they use: West Midlands Railway for services within the West Midlands and London Northwestern Railway for services outside the West Midlands.
This is done so in the future, if the DfT agrees to it then the business unit that is West Midlands Railway can be easily be split off and operated by Transport for West Midlands in much the same way that Merseyrail and London Overground is managed.
I hope that helps clear up in better detail why it appears to be confusing?
As to confused passengers, try a passenger who was insisting that there was a direct train from the station they were travelling to from the station they had started their journey, the only issue was the service and the railway route in question had been closed for the previous 40 to 50 years!
Falcon1200
Established Member
And Counties !
There always have been, and always will be cases of people getting on the wrong train, both through their fault and the railway’s ( hand on heart - tell me it could never happen to you!). What the public should not have to worry about is determining which particular company is operating a train. Either they have a ticket for a specific train or fir a route. None of this “Southern only” malarkey - “ this is a Southern Service operated by Gatwick Express” etc
riceuten
Member
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Lest we forget the North West Trains London to Oldham/Rochdale trains...
I often find British people travelling European railways really confused by the fact that a train can be made up of stock from 3 different railway companies and that they need to find only the stock from their "home" country. Or that a "train" from Bucharest to Munich can actually just be one or two carriages. For a long time, there was a Berlin to Aqmola (in Kazakhstan) train that was a single carriage (with convertible/changeable bogies) run by Kazakhstan Temir Zholy (KTZ)
I often find British people travelling European railways really confused by the fact that a train can be made up of stock from 3 different railway companies and that they need to find only the stock from their "home" country. Or that a "train" from Bucharest to Munich can actually just be one or two carriages. For a long time, there was a Berlin to Aqmola (in Kazakhstan) train that was a single carriage (with convertible/changeable bogies) run by Kazakhstan Temir Zholy (KTZ)
Or indeed, the “ through” train from Zurich to Belgrade. None of the coaches that left Zurich actually got to Belgrade
starlightEXPRESS
Member
About 20 years ago I caught a sleeper train from Krakow (Poland) to Prague (Czech Republic). It was only two coaches leaving Krakow, but by the time it had arrived in Prague it was eight coaches long (having been joined by four from Warsaw and two from Gdansk).
Nova1
Member
Maybe slightly off the thread topic, but it always makes me happy when I’m able to help lost passengers.
Had a group of older chaps who were convinced their train to Birmingham would use Platform 2 (since their train to Stratford arrived at Platform 1). I was happy to explain to them that they were indeed on the correct platform
Had a group of older chaps who were convinced their train to Birmingham would use Platform 2 (since their train to Stratford arrived at Platform 1). I was happy to explain to them that they were indeed on the correct platform
The ‘Trigger’s broom’ of train formations?
Almost travelled on that service from Ljubljana (which is where I believe the carriages to/from Belgrade start/finish) but time constraints meant I opted for AirSerbia.
coppercapped
Established Member
My favourite train of this type was the erstwhile 'Tauern Express'. In the time I used it, it travelled from Split to Oostende via Zagreb, Ljubljana, Villach, Salzburg, München, Mannheim, Köln and Brussel and I used to board it around 23.00 at Ulm to travel to Oostende for the ship to Dover. At Ulm it was often 10 or 12 coaches long hauled by an E10 or similar.
The 'concept' of the train travelled through, but except possibly in high summer I don't think any carriages made the full journey. In the mid-1970s the sleeping and liegewagen coaches for Oostende were attached or detached in Salzburg and I think there was a restaurant car which made part of the journey - but not the night stretch through Germany.
Many, if not most, of these multi-part trains have died; killed by the expansion of air travel, the growth in car ownership, the easing of border controls and the time taken to exchange train sections at intermediate points on the journey. On a long journey this must have amounted to nearly a couple of hours in total.
Still, there was still drama when the train swept into the station out of the snow of a winter evening and one knew that it had already been travelling for 24 hours. Fascinating!
I'm not sure about the financial support. Certainly they did in BR days, and the early days of First North Western (as did GMPTE) and indeed that extended to the branding of pacers with Merseytravel colours, but I can't see any reference online to that arrangement having been renewed in the last 20 years or so.
Indeed, IIRC the first franchise agreements has the local PTEs as co-signatories, but this went by the wayside as the years went on. The 2015 Northern Franchise agreement only mentions that the operator has to accept Merseytravel tickets, and the 2020 Northern Rail contract specifies this too and mentions some station works being done at Prescot, Broad Green and Netwon-le-Willows, but that's that.
In reality the nature of the so-called "City Line" is that very few people who will be travelling to or from them will be confused simply because they're highly likely to be locals commuting or shopping. And (fortunately) Lime Street, where non-locals will be most prevalent is a Network Rail run station, so the confusing branding isn't found there. But it's still counter-intuitive to brand railways stations with a line that doesn't exist, when there is a confusingly named line that does exist, but runs somewhere else. It'd be like calling London North Western services from Euston "Piccadilly Line" trains or calling Thameslink "the Central Line".
As for Earlestown, I say that because firstly it depicts it with a large circle, which implies it's a major destination, i.e. in the same class as Lime Street, Bank Quay, etc., and more important than Huyton & Wigan, which are shown with smaller circles. Secondly, it shows the line as being a head on terminus for Bank Quay, making it look like there's a shuttle service terminating at Warrington at one end and Earlestown at the other end.
In fairness I can't imagine there's that many people wanting to go to Earlestown or WBQ who would rely on that map to find their service, but Beck's map this certainly aint!
DustyBin
Established Member
Very true, and for such people train liveries are the least of their problems!
norbitonflyer
Established Member
The West Highland sleeper used to be like that - it was possible to travel from Euston to Mallaig without changing trains, as the sleeping cars and day coaches were attached to the Inverness sleeper as far as Mossend Yard, and then "tripped" round to Queen Street to be attached to the front of the morning Mallaig service. At Fort William, they were detached ready to be attached to the evening service back to Glasgow, but it was of course possible to walk down the train into the Mallaig portion en route between Glasgow and Fort William.
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Steddenm
Established Member
Just had a woman at Blackpool South asking if the two car Sprinter is the Avanti service to London Euston. I did politely explain she was at the wrong station though.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
BR spent the last decade of its life trying, fairly successfully, to segregate its business into sectors with different identities and business methods.
Hence Intercity, NSE and Regional Railways (often further subdivided into local brands).
On that were hung different fare levels, train interiors and service frequencies.
Then there were the PTEs with their local different rules and brands, not to mention TfL dominating London.
Today we have to add devolution to Wales and Scotland to the mix, with their own ways of doing things and distinct branding.
And you hope to go back to a single brand and farebook?
The genie is out of the bottle, I'm afraid.
Head over to France/Germany/Spain to see how publicly-run railways there have their own orgy of branding and sub-branding.
SNCF keeps inventing new ways to carve up its empire with multiple service brands, plus all the local TER brands.
GBR may simplify many things, but I doubt we will get back to Rail Blue and "a train is a train is a train", because there will always be different rail business models.
You will soon be able to add HS2 to the variety, with its trains running the length of the WCML alongside existing services.
You get some people who rely on train liveries too much. Just the other day I was on an EMR service from Nottingham aboard 156402 (which is in Northern livery). Quite a few people boarded expecting it to be the Northern service to Leeds. When they realised they were actually going to Newark Castle they weren't that pleased
However on the opposite end of the scale you get people who take no notice of what the train even looks like. Take the example of the time I was in Hull and watched a man board the Network Rail measurement train with his bike, before alighting a few minutes later looking a confused. He asked me where the Sheffield service was, and I told him that it had already departed and that he nearly took a direct trip to the Heaton depot!
However on the opposite end of the scale you get people who take no notice of what the train even looks like. Take the example of the time I was in Hull and watched a man board the Network Rail measurement train with his bike, before alighting a few minutes later looking a confused. He asked me where the Sheffield service was, and I told him that it had already departed and that he nearly took a direct trip to the Heaton depot!
Falcon1200
Established Member
The other day, as I alighted from a terminating 2-car GWR green 165 at Oxford, a guy rushed down the stairs and jumped on the train, presumably mistaking it for the 9-car Cross Country Voyager to Manchester due several minutes later !
I would have to admit I've jumped on the same type of train but different TOC. In my case an XC HST and found myself wondering why GWR were using a XC HST only to realise in my haste I had boarded a XC service. It was rather poor light but to a seasoned old train buff that isn't really an excuse. For Mr and Mrs Joe I could forgive it in this case.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I am afraid your spotter license will be endorsed by 3 points and you will recive an offical admonishment in your record.
Think yourself lucky. I got 6 points for getting on the wrong virgin train at euston. First stop preston. I wanted MK.......
Scotrail314209
Established Member
Assuming that was the 1630 Glasgow that ran fast to Preston?
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