Passengers getting confused by different TOCs or liveries.

[AlbertBeale]

It's not just the rail industry. There was (dunno if they're still going) an energy PPP who decided to call themselves e. HTF you are supposed to find that on google is anyone's guess. What's really hard to understand is how there can still be so many people around who have never used a search engine to be thinking up these stupid names.

Personally I think they should just get rid of the whole silly mess altogether. Paint all the stock blue and grey with no logos anywhere and if anyone really does care what is the name of the company operating the train this week then they can stick it on a paper label in the door underneath the list of destinations, Rail Alphabet font and plain text only. Knock the saved cost of all the endless repainting off the fares, ditto the cost of the acid tabs used in concocting the new colour schemes, and if any company insists on calling themselves by a stupid name like First or One they are instantly disqualified.

Absolutely - there'd be no problem with differing brands/logos if there weren't any. Just "trains"...

Most people neither know nor care anything about the different companies - and many that do know just think it's silly.

 

[Spartacus]

Absolutely - there'd be no problem with differing brands/logos if there weren't any. Just "trains"...

Most people neither know nor care anything about the different companies - and many that do know just think it's silly.

Don't forget that British Rail realised long ago that having specifically branded services, and in some cases routes, could do wonders for traffic levels....... It even worked for freight!

 

[Phlip]

A lot of discretion was used, in my experience anyway. Although I can’t talk for others.

Indeed. I suspect that if it was enforced and the parties concerned “went legal”, a court wouldn’t look kindly on the railway in this situation. And I suspect the railway knows this, so it would never get to it…

 

[NSEFAN]

Don't forget that British Rail realised long ago that having specifically branded services, and in some cases routes, could do wonders for traffic levels....... It even worked for freight!

How much of that was down to the organisational benefits of bringing together services of similar types, versus the colours on the trains? I'm sure a good, consistent brand image helps, but the livery on the carriages is just part of a wider picture. Although I will concede that sectorisation liveries were good!

 

[BayPaul]

I hope that certain sub-brands and liveries survive into the GBR era, as they can make things simpler for passengers. Examples would be Thameslink - having these trains remain a different colour to the other trains on the routes they serve would make a lot of sense, as it makes it much easier to tell that they have a different destination at the London end, and Cross-Country, which run 'off pattern' services on the majority of their network. I could also see a case for having an Intercity sub-brand, to try to make it more obvious that this train is likely to be to a destination a long way away (whilst accepting that it may also carry local traffic, that argument has been done to death elsewhere), and also to allow Intercity only / not Intercity fares, which is a useful way to increase revenue and have bargain fares for those with more time on their hands. I don't see a whole lot of point in having different liveries in different regions, other than for local city networks like Merseyrail.

 

[Townsend Hook]

I’m eternally amazed on test trains by passengers who refuse to believe me when I say ‘no this isn’t your train to New Street/Piccadilly/Buggleskelly, it’s an engineering train, we don’t carry passengers’. On a couple of occasions we have had to race down the train locking doors to prevent belligerent, drunken passengers from boarding.

 

[sw1ller]

Still, at least you got one up on the self-loading freight, eh? Doubtless when the revolution comes, those top-hatted plutocrats will be first against the wall.

I genuinely don’t know what you’ve just said. I dont know why I come on this forum. Far too high brow for me!!

 

[route101]

TPE and Scotrail. Heard a few passengers refer to TPE services from Scotland as Scotrail.

 

[70014IronDuke]

A lot of discretion was used, in my experience anyway. Although I can’t talk for others.

Very sensible.

Indeed, legally speaking, if (in this case) Northern tried to prosecute someone for using a TP only ticket on the train and refusing to pay for a new ticket ticket valid on the service, I feel (though not being a lawyer) the passenger would stand a good chance in court, claiming in defence that he or she had boarded what they had belived to be, in good faith, a TP serice.

Indeed I wonder if this should be the subject of a new thread?

 

[Polarbear]

Happens quite frequently in my experience. For many people who are infrequent users of the rail network, I can understand why they may get confused. They know what time their train departs & from which platform, and in their view, the train that appears at that place and time "must" be theirs, even if it isn't. At busy stations, especially where there has been a little bit of disruption, this can often be the case.

I do recall one instance of this that made me smile. Passenger on platform 4 at Chester station insisted that her train to London was the one sat at the platform. It was almost comical to have to explain that a 153 wasn't really going to cut it & she should maybe wait for the (at the time), rather bigger HST which was about 15 minutes late.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It's not just the rail industry. There was (dunno if they're still going) an energy PPP who decided to call themselves e. HTF you are supposed to find that on google is anyone's guess. What's really hard to understand is how there can still be so many people around who have never used a search engine to be thinking up these stupid names.

Personally I think they should just get rid of the whole silly mess altogether. Paint all the stock blue and grey with no logos anywhere and if anyone really does care what is the name of the company operating the train this week then they can stick it on a paper label in the door underneath the list of destinations, Rail Alphabet font and plain text only. Knock the saved cost of all the endless repainting off the fares, ditto the cost of the acid tabs used in concocting the new colour schemes, and if any company insists on calling themselves by a stupid name like First or One they are instantly disqualified.

And lose their deposit!

I love it! Post of the Year!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2021 ==

These stories about confused passengers are as old as the hills, some may be true, others apocryphal. Apparently the names of some of the London Brighton and South Coast Railway's locomotives, Stepney, Ewell, Cheam, Kemptown and similar caused many Victorian travellers to miss their trains or end up at the wrong place.

There's nothing new under the sun...

Not just Victorian travellers. I believe there are stories of passengers on the Southern who took the train "to Barnstable" because it was on the side of the loco on the front. (as an example)

 

[norbitonflyer]

TPE and Scotrail. Heard a few passengers refer to TPE services from Scotland as Scotrail.

I recently heard a passenger sounding off against Transport for London because the toilets were closed at Kingston. (I don't think he was confused by the colour of the train - he looked far too young to remember red Tube trains)

 

[Townsend Hook]

I recently heard a passenger sounding off against Transport for London because the toilets were closed at Kingston. (I don't think he was confused by the colour of the train - he looked far too young to remember red Tube trains)

Passengers kicking off at the wrong staff/organisation seems to be pretty commonplace. I recall a chap giving the East Midlands Trains gateline staff at St Pancras all kinds of earache once because his train to Folkestone had been cancelled…. Would not accept that it’s another TOC and thus nothing to do with them. The attitude seems to be ‘you work for the railway, my problem is with the railway, it’s therefore your problem.’

 

[3141]

Interesting to see the two contradictory positions on this thread. One is about people allegedly confused because a train's livery isn't what they were expecting. The other is the line about no-one caring what livery a train has, they don't notice the livery, all they care about is that it's a train, etc.

The problems, of which there are probably very few in reality, are solved at most stations by electronic displays which show information about each train, the time it's due, where it's going, and the operator, with announcements over loudspeakers providing the same information.

 

[bristollh]

A few years ago I was on a 142 leaving Darlington southbound and a gentleman who had just boarded turned around and asked me “this is the London train isn’t it?”….

I've experienced the same thing while on a Merseyrail-spec 142 on the 0935ish Sunday morning Man Picc - Sheffield service, where some chap in a suit with a large suitcase dived aboard just as the doors were about to shut. As we reached the end of the platform, he asked "is this the London train?" He left the train at Ashburys for a decent wait for the next train back to Picc. Quite why he thought a 142 would be taking him to London rather than the Pendolino a couple of platforms down, I'll never know.....

 

[AlbertBeale]

Interesting to see the two contradictory positions on this thread. One is about people allegedly confused because a train's livery isn't what they were expecting. The other is the line about no-one caring what livery a train has, they don't notice the livery, all they care about is that it's a train, etc.

I don't think these are contradictory at all. It's precisely because many people who're not "into" railway things (but simply want, occasionally, to use a train to get from A to B) just think of a train as a train, that they're not sensitive to different types and get on something that "an expert" would realise is an inappropriate type or colour etc. Where people are confused if the train looks different from what they're used to, it's not because they care about such things - on the contrary, they don't care, and hence don't know enough to understand what's going no, and that's why they're confused.

 

[matt_world2004]

I recently heard a passenger sounding off against Transport for London because the toilets were closed at Kingston. (I don't think he was confused by the colour of the train - he looked far too young to remember red Tube trains)

Someone definitely contacted tfl to complain when the porn was played over the tannoy on a South West trains

 

[JBuchananGB]

I think livery is important. Sometime before COVID I was waiting at Lancaster for my booked Northern service to Wigan (Seat sale 10p ticket), when a train came in very clearly marked as London Northwestern. Prizes for guessing which TOC was operating it. Clue - It wasn't Northern.

 

[londonteacher]

I think livery is important. Sometime before COVID I was waiting at Lancaster for my booked Northern service to Wigan (Seat sale 10p ticket), when a train came in very clearly marked as London Northwestern. Prizes for guessing which TOC was operating it. Clue - It wasn't Northern.

It was Transpennine.

 

[Falcon1200]

Happens quite frequently in my experience. For many people who are infrequent users of the rail network, I can understand why they may get confused. They know what time their train departs & from which platform, and in their view, the train that appears at that place and time "must" be theirs, even if it isn't.

Waiting on Oxford's down platform for a Voyager, more than once I have seen passengers try to board a terminating GWR 2-car 165 thinking it was their Newcastle, Manchester etc train.

 

[PeterC]

Waiting on Oxford's down platform for a Voyager, more than once I have seen passengers try to board a terminating GWR 2-car 165 thinking it was their Newcastle, Manchester etc train.

I must confess to running for a late terminating 165 on that platform when going to Worcester. Using a journey planner rather than a proper timetable I had no idea where my train started from and so didn't know if I should be expecting a "local" or "inter city" quality service.

 

[coppercapped]

All of which suggests that there are some people who shouldn't be allowed out without adult supervision...

(Runs for cover....!)

 

[yorkie]

Some passengers boarded the Retro Railtour instead of a Northern service on the Cumbrian coast today, however fortunately for them the train did call at the station they required.

To be fair it was not that long ago that the same class of locomotive (class 37) and similar coaching stock was working regular Northern services on this route.

On another note there have been times when passengers at Manchester Piccadilly thought a Class 323 electric going to Hadfield was running a TPE service towards Leeds.

I think livery is important. Sometime before COVID I was waiting at Lancaster for my booked Northern service to Wigan (Seat sale 10p ticket), when a train came in very clearly marked as London Northwestern. Prizes for guessing which TOC was operating it. Clue - It wasn't Northern.

And to add to the confusion, LNR isn't even a TOC, merely being a sub brand of West Midlands Trains.

No wonder the public get confused.

 

[PeterC]

All of which suggests that there are some people who shouldn't be allowed out without adult supervision...

(Runs for cover....!)

OK next time I travel by rail I will employ a fully qualified train spotter to guide me.

 

[capitalconnect]

I remember one passenger who alighted from a 374 at St Pancras on P5 and then immediately tried to board the 374 sitting opposite on P6 thinking it was their train home to Gravesend!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

No wonder the public get confused.

Where is the evidence the public get confused apart from a few anecdotes on this forum?

Seriously, there is no such thing as "the public". They are rail passengers, or customers if you prefer.

 

[yorkie]

Where is the evidence the public get confused apart from a few anecdotes on this forum?

I think it's self evident to any regular passenger, but there are plenty of examples on social media.

Seriously, there is no such thing as "the public". They are rail passengers, or customers if you prefer.

Feel free to use any terminology you see fit; I used the terms 'passengers' and 'the public' interchangeably as synonyms in order to avoid repetition in a sentence; not for any particular reason.

 

[noddingdonkey]

It's not all that many years ago that you would get whatever unit happened to be available if the booked traction couldn't be provided.

When Transpennine was a brand of Arriva rather than a TOC in its own right Neville Hill managed to produce a 142 vice the usual 158 for an Express from Leeds to Manchester.

The bemused guard showed up and asked us to wait on the platform while he made a phone call - iirc he managed to get a set swap with a 156.

Did TOC liveries used outside of their patch cause confusion? Metro Train branded units could turn up almost anywhere in the North, well beyond West Yorkshire

 

[Spartacus]

It's not all that many years ago that you would get whatever unit happened to be available if the booked traction couldn't be provided.

When Transpennine was a brand of Arriva rather than a TOC in its own right Neville Hill managed to produce a 142 vice the usual 158 for an Express from Leeds to Manchester.

The bemused guard showed up and asked us to wait on the platform while he made a phone call - iirc he managed to get a set swap with a 156.

Did TOC liveries used outside of their patch cause confusion? Metro Train branded units could turn up almost anywhere in the North, well beyond West Yorkshire

I'm sure that happened much more recently too during heavy disruption caused by the weather and the horrendous TPE timetable with a spare 142 and Northern crew working a TPE service from Leeds to Huddersfield.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I manged to get confused at Paddington a few years back, on a family trip to Bath. Looking for the 10:00 (or whatever) to Bristol I saw such a train advertised on the screens as departing from platform 10 and went over there to discover a Class 47 on the stops with a rake of Mark 1s. After a little surprise, (and wondering how such a train would manage to keep to HST timings), closer investigation revealed that it was not going to call at Bath and was actually a special excursion, albeit advertised on the screens just like an ordinary service train. A second train, also due to depart at 10:00, was on the adjacent panel of the departure board. Cue family, plus four bikes, returning across the Lawn to our HST on platform 1. Both trains did indeed depart at the same time, with lots of oohing and aahing from passengers on my train at the "kettle" on the other train, which we rapidly left behind (but was seen passing through Bath about an hour after our arrival).