Passengers forcing their way off stranded trains

[Pyreneenguy]

Please read my post - I never mentioned anything of the sort. You stated that courts would not prosecute because of the sheer number of people. That is wrong. You also stated that it would be seen as a fight against the TOC. That is also wrong. It doesn't take someone with a PhD to work that out!

If I was a long suffering passenger who forced an exit from a broken-down train, in my mind any prosecution for trespass would be a battle against the poor performance of the TOC.

 

[ushawk]

If I was a long suffering passenger who forced an exit from a broken-down train, in my mind any prosecution for trespass would be a battle against the poor performance of the TOC.

As already said, it isnt a battle against a TOC in the court if you tresspass. Of course you could then take the TOC to court separately though.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

As already said, it isnt a battle against a TOC in the court if you tresspass. Of course you could then take the TOC to court separately though.

Oh dear ! What caused the trespass in the first place ? If I was up in court for such an offense, in my mind I would see it as a battle against the poor performance of the TOC which would also be my line of defense, don't be so pedantic !

 

[ushawk]

Oh dear ! What caused the trespass in the first place ? If I was up in court for such an offense, in my mind I would see it as a battle against the poor performance of the TOC which would also be my line of defense, don't be so pedantic !

What caused it ? People who couldnt be bothered to wait. And poor TOC performance would be picked up on by Network Rail. I also dont think the courts would care about past problems the TOC has had either.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Oh dear ! What caused the trespass in the first place ? If I was up in court for such an offense, in my mind I would see it as a battle against the poor performance of the TOC which would also be my line of defense, don't be so pedantic !

If you were in court for such an offence, then you wouldn't need a defence as I believe it is a strict liability offence.

 

[DarloRich]

Oh dear ! What caused the trespass in the first place ? If I was up in court for such an offense, in my mind I would see it as a battle against the poor performance of the TOC which would also be my line of defense, don't be so pedantic !

and you would loose! That is not a defense to a criminal act!

 

[Pyreneenguy]

It would be interesting to see how forum-members would react to such a situation.

Taking the recent events near Bexleyheath as an example. Would you forcibly exit from a standed train in similar conditions ?

 

[PinzaC55]

Depends how you define "suffering"? Sitting around for 2 hours isn't really suffering on the grand scale of things but if the third rail is live you might find out the true meaning of suffering.
If the train was on top of Ribblehead viaduct or halfway through the Severn Tunnel I would sit tight.

 

[Ferret]

What caused it ? People who couldnt be bothered to wait. And poor TOC performance would be picked up on by Network Rail. I also dont think the courts would care about past problems the TOC has had either.

It may be a mitigating circumstance, but you would still be found guilty and fined.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Depends how you define "suffering"? Sitting around for 2 hours isn't really suffering on the grand scale of things but if the third rail is live you might find out the true meaning of suffering.
If the train was on top of Ribblehead viaduct or halfway through the Severn Tunnel I would sit tight.

I stated in similar conditions to the Bexleyheath incident.

 

[Ferret]

I stated in similar conditions to the Bexleyheath incident.

And failed to ask an accurate question.

You meant to say, 'would you evacuate knowing it would be an illegal act and knowing it would make the situation worse for anyone else thus making yourself into an arrogant self-important inconsiderate t###er?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I wouldn't define being stuck on a train for two hours as 'suffering'. Illness, heartbreak, pain, that is suffering, getting stuck on a mildly not train isn't!

 

[Pyreneenguy]

And failed to ask an accurate question.

You meant to say, 'would you evacuate knowing it would be an illegal act and knowing it would make the situation worse for anyone else thus making yourself into an arrogant self-important inconsiderate t###er?

Be that as it may my friend, hundreds of people did such a thing. Were they all wrong ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Be that as it may my friend, hundreds of people did such a thing. Were they all wrong ?

Well they did all technically break the law, so yes, I suppose.

 

[Ferret]

Be that as it may my friend, hundreds of people did such a thing. Were they all wrong ?

Indeed they were.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Well they did all technically break the law, so yes, I suppose.

Technically, yes, but a Court of Law would consider the circumstances and probably set a minimum fine 'for the principle'. Such leniency cannot be guaranteed but would be equitable.

 

[465fan]

Without slagging each other off, I would go so far as to say that should I be stuck on a train, and there was no sign of movement, coupled with intense heat and a lack of water, I would most definitely begin evacuation, on a couple of conditions:

Inform the driver, and in real terms, give him the ultimatum that he either rings the Bobby and gets the juice cut / trains stopped for 10 / 20 minutes whilst he evacuates his train, or we walk off and people like me, who are well versed in PTS / 3rd rail do the work and keep everyone safe.

Its not about being arrogant, or self important, or inconsiderate, but you could have people who become ill, or expectant mothers as an example, who really do need to leave the train in those circumstances.

Recently, I was on a train that came to a grinder at Eltham owing to the power suddenly shorting, with an explosion of the clay pots supporting the juice bar. The lights went out immediately, and people became scared. I took my Halo torch out and shone it quickly, don't know how re-assuring that is. We evacuated the train, although it was in the platform, but a couple of us stayed on board, knowing it wouldn't be overly long before we were back on the shift.

 

[The Snap]

Be that as it may my friend, hundreds of people did such a thing. Were they all wrong ?

Yes. There is not discussion to be had on the matter.

I personally wouldn't entertain the idea of jumping from the train, simply because if I got caught I would loose my job! I appreciate why people who don’t work on the railways would do it though, however dangerous or non-dangerous they think it is...

Inform the driver, and in real terms, give him the ultimatum that he either rings the Bobby and gets the juice cut / trains stopped for 10 / 20 minutes whilst he evacuates his train, or we walk off and people like me, who are well versed in PTS / 3rd rail do the work and keep everyone safe.

I don't know what position within the railway you hold, if indeed you do work within the railway. But I would suggest you do not have the authority to order an evacuation of a train without the driver's and/or signaller's consent. Suggesting that you would order an evacuation if the driver didn't do it himself because you are "well versed in PTS/3rd rail" is just as illegal as any Tom, Dick or Harry jumping off the train...

Having said that, if you are indeed PTS-trained it is slightly different. I'm not sure of the rules with regards to who has the authority (in terms of staff) to evacuate a train onto a live railway, though.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Without slagging each other off, I would go so far as to say that should I be stuck on a train, and there was no sign of movement, coupled with intense heat and a lack of water, I would most definitely begin evacuation, on a couple of conditions:

Inform the driver, and in real terms, give him the ultimatum that he either rings the Bobby and gets the juice cut / trains stopped for 10 / 20 minutes whilst he evacuates his train, or we walk off and people like me, who are well versed in PTS / 3rd rail do the work and keep everyone safe.

Its not about being arrogant, or self important, or inconsiderate, but you could have people who become ill, or expectant mothers as an example, who really do need to leave the train in those circumstances.

Recently, I was on a train that came to a grinder at Eltham owing to the power suddenly shorting, with an explosion of the clay pots supporting the juice bar. The lights went out immediately, and people became scared. I took my Halo torch out and shone it quickly, don't know how re-assuring that is. We evacuated the train, although it was in the platform, but a couple of us stayed on board, knowing it wouldn't be overly long before we were back on the shift.

Perhaps I'm playing The Devils Advocate, but I am fascinated by human-nature !

 

[Kneedown]

Well they did all technically break the law, so yes, I suppose.

There's no "technically" about it, they blatently broke the law.

 

[Captain Chaos]

If I was a long suffering passenger who forced an exit from a broken-down train, in my mind any prosecution for trespass would be a battle against the poor performance of the TOC.

Just because you believe you can justify something doesn't make it right.

 

[Chz]

It may be a mitigating circumstance, but you would still be found guilty and fined.

You say that with such certainty. How many people from this particular incident do you believe will go to court and be found guilty and fined?

You are correct in that a prosecution has a good chance (not a guarantee, I might add) of ending in a fine, but what crown prosecutor is actually going to proceed with this one? The press would have a field day and lawyers would be chomping at the bit to defend the passengers and probably get in on a little class action suit as retribution.

 

[coupwotcoup]

Guilty as charged.. back in 1994/1995 stuck on a 312(?) outside Romford station for three hours on a Sunday afternoon.
Eventually, having suffered, in my opinion, enough, I forced the doors open jumped down and walked to the station.
Three friends and others followed and despite protestations from the driver (no third rail, but I know, still wrong) we just carried on the approx 50-yard walk to the station.
It is easy to be critical until stuck in said situation and yes, what I did was wrong but three hours stuck in a train was enough.

 

[Invincibles]

Technically, yes, but a Court of Law would consider the circumstances and probably set a minimum fine 'for the principle'. Such leniency cannot be guaranteed but would be equitable.

Equitable?

Interesting description given the extra inconvenience caused to others who can not then travel due to the switching off of the power.

 

[Ferret]

Guilty as charged.. back in 1994/1995 stuck on a 312(?) outside Romford station for three hours on a Sunday afternoon.
Eventually, having suffered, in my opinion, enough, I forced the doors open jumped down and walked to the station.
Three friends and others followed and despite protestations from the driver (no third rail, but I know, still wrong) we just carried on the approx 50-yard walk to the station.
It is easy to be critical until stuck in said situation and yes, what I did was wrong but three hours stuck in a train was enough.

This is where the railway need to get a controlled evacuation underway. 3 hours with no movement would suggest a serious farce in progress...

 

[coupwotcoup]

I cannot remember what caused the incident but there was a train stuck in the station itself and another further up the line so obviously a major incident of some form.
Thinking back I seem to remember that the driver had contacted the station staff and if it had been just me and my three friends, we would have probably had our collar's felt by BTP but they were at a loss with so many people.
As I said, not right, but we all do a few nonsensical in times of need.

 

[The Snap]

I find it surprising that there is not any kind of procedure in place for evacuating a train after such a longer period.

I appreciate that the TOCs and NR want to minimise disruption, and putting passengers on the tracks means endless amount of form-filling, but surely they too can appreciate that a fare-paying passenger doesn't deserve to be sat on a train for 3 hours through no fault of their own...?

 

[Pyreneenguy]

This is where the railway need to get a controlled evacuation underway. 3 hours with no movement would suggest a serious farce in progress...

Suffocating heat, stood-up, squashed in like sardines...................the emergency services would be required before 3 hours were out !

2 hours already illustrates a huge defaillance in the TOC's capacity to run a railway competently.

 

[tirphil]

A railway employee can make him/herself available to assist the booked traincrew of a service on which they are travelling in an event such as this. I don't believe they can take charge of the situation though.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

A railway employee can make him/herself available to assist the booked traincrew of a service on which they are travelling in an event such as this. I don't believe they can take charge of the situation though.

Which is probably just as well !