Passengers blocking doorways

[ComUtoR]

All I recall is something along the lines of 'Hurry along' or 'We're about to leave'. I can't recall being told that the hustle alarm means that I can't board.

And that is the problem in a nutshell. Regardless of being told specifically not to board if the hustle alarm is sounding, regardless of the warnings of trying to board when the doors are closing, there is still an insistence of doing whatever you wish and ignoring the warnings. I personally make them regularly and they are made at my TOCs stations and there is a poster campaign.

The doors are in the process of closing, please do not attempt to board, please do not encourage it please highlight to others that you should not board if the doors are closing.

Feel free to go to the RSSB website and search through the research papers regarding passenger behavior when boarding and alighting. A lot of which revolves around promoting good behaviors and discouraging the bad ones. It also includes campaigns to highlight the risks to passengers and help educate. You can also find recommendations made in the final sections of the RAIB reports after a trap and drag.

Trap and Drags are very serious incidents and we should do everything we can to prevent them. Stand clear of the doors, stand behind the yellow line, allow people off before trying to board etc etc are just a few examples of trying to encourage good behaviors are the Platform Train Interface. Encouraging people to block doorways. hold open doors, remove passenger luggage, and justify jamming hands, arms, and boarding when the doors are closing only promotes and encourages behavior that will lead to another trap and drag.

The PTI (platform train interface) is one of the final places that is a serious risk and causes injury to passengers each year. People on this forum are in a fortunate position where the dangers are highlighted and discussed with various sections of the industry. We should all promote good passenger behavior and help drive the risks at the PTI down.

 

[Robertj21a]

And that is the problem in a nutshell. Regardless of being told specifically not to board if the hustle alarm is sounding, regardless of the warnings of trying to board when the doors are closing, there is still an insistence of doing whatever you wish and ignoring the warnings. I personally make them regularly and they are made at my TOCs stations and there is a poster campaign.

The doors are in the process of closing, please do not attempt to board, please do not encourage it please highlight to others that you should not board if the doors are closing.

Feel free to go to the RSSB website and search through the research papers regarding passenger behavior when boarding and alighting. A lot of which revolves around promoting good behaviors and discouraging the bad ones. It also includes campaigns to highlight the risks to passengers and help educate. You can also find recommendations made in the final sections of the RAIB reports after a trap and drag.

Trap and Drags are very serious incidents and we should do everything we can to prevent them. Stand clear of the doors, stand behind the yellow line, allow people off before trying to board etc etc are just a few examples of trying to encourage good behaviors are the Platform Train Interface. Encouraging people to block doorways. hold open doors, remove passenger luggage, and justify jamming hands, arms, and boarding when the doors are closing only promotes and encourages behavior that will lead to another trap and drag.

The PTI (platform train interface) is one of the final places that is a serious risk and causes injury to passengers each year. People on this forum are in a fortunate position where the dangers are highlighted and discussed with various sections of the industry. We should all promote good passenger behavior and help drive the risks at the PTI down.

I think you may still be missing the point I'm trying to make.
I recognise that there are various posters and advice that you shouldn't board but I've never been told that I can't board - it's usually a comment to hurry along, or hand wave to get on quickly. In any event, with 12 coach trains I'll usually be by/in a door well away from any rail official on the platform.
I honestly feel that many of the passengers just treat the hustle alarm for what it appears to be - something to hustle you to do something (move quicker).

 

[fusionblue]

I admit i read this thread title thinking about how people board, take one step into the train and then immediately stop, thus blocking the doors for everyone else.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think you may still be missing the point I'm trying to make.

I know the point you are trying to make but it only serves to promote bad behavior. It acts as justification for people to do something that puts them at risk.

I recognise that there are various posters and advice that you shouldn't board but I've never been told that I can't board - it's usually a comment to hurry along, or hand wave to get on quickly.

Do you really need someone to specifically tell you you cannot board ? Again, the problem here is that you are trying to justify boarding when the doors are closing. Does the industry need to change the wording of 'Shouldn't' to 'Must not'

I honestly feel that many of the passengers just treat the hustle alarm for what it appears to be - something to hustle you to do something (move quicker).

Move quicker in which direction ? If you are in the doorway when you hear the alarm, then its a warning to move away from the door because it's closing, not towards it and try to jump through at the last minute. It is that we are trying to prevent.

I'm not sure what is gained by trying to split hairs and playing with semantics. Shouldn't we all do our best to prevent an incident from happening ? Shouldn't we encourage good passenger behaviors ? or should't we try and excuse it and justify it ?

 

[Robertj21a]

I know the point you are trying to make but it only serves to promote bad behavior. It acts as justification for people to do something that puts them at risk.



Do you really need someone to specifically tell you you cannot board ? Again, the problem here is that you are trying to justify boarding when the doors are closing. Does the industry need to change the wording of 'Shouldn't' to 'Must not'



Move quicker in which direction ? If you are in the doorway when you hear the alarm, then its a warning to move away from the door because it's closing, not towards it and try to jump through at the last minute. It is that we are trying to prevent.

I'm not sure what is gained by trying to split hairs and playing with semantics. Shouldn't we all do our best to prevent an incident from happening ? Shouldn't we encourage good passenger behaviors ? or should't we try and excuse it and justify it ?

I'm sure we're both trying to say much the same thing and I'm not playing semantics. To me, a hustle alarm is called a hustle alarm because it is trying to hustle people along, not stop them entering. I accept that might just be me, but I don't think so.
Yes, by all means change the wording from shouldn't to mustn't if that helps emphasise the dangers. Perhaps the hustle alarm should also be retitled if it is actually more than just to hustle......

 

[bramling]

I know the point you are trying to make but it only serves to promote bad behavior. It acts as justification for people to do something that puts them at risk.



Do you really need someone to specifically tell you you cannot board ? Again, the problem here is that you are trying to justify boarding when the doors are closing. Does the industry need to change the wording of 'Shouldn't' to 'Must not'



Move quicker in which direction ? If you are in the doorway when you hear the alarm, then its a warning to move away from the door because it's closing, not towards it and try to jump through at the last minute. It is that we are trying to prevent.

I'm not sure what is gained by trying to split hairs and playing with semantics. Shouldn't we all do our best to prevent an incident from happening ? Shouldn't we encourage good passenger behaviors ? or should't we try and excuse it and justify it ?

To be honest I think you're both right on this in different ways. Passengers shouldn't need to be told, but the industry could do more to encourage better passenger behaviours. Instead of the rules about obstructing doors being hidden away in the byelaws, there could be much more conspicuous publicity.

 

[nat67]

To be honest I get Peed off when they put either suit cases on the seats which I have seen not that long ago, plus newspapers but also when they block the vestibules. It really pees me off and that happened on Sunday 16th December catching a train from Bedford to St Pancras.

 

[sefton]

I agree that there comes a point where the doors need to be closed. The hustle alarm makes it clear it's time to stop boarding.

The safety critical part is checking the doors are clear before the train can move. You can't wait all day for the close doors but must wait as long as it takes for the 'right away'.

Sorry but the safety critical part starts when the person operating the doors chooses to close them - the doors do not automatically close.

To choose to close them whilst you still see people boarding is taking a risk. If someone chooses to take that risk, fair enough, they are taking that gamble.

Arguing business operations make it hard to operate the system doesn't remove the risk.

In fact blindly pressing the button to close the doors when you can see people boarding (or closing your eyes and pressing the button anyway) makes the operation even worse as you now have to make additional lengthy checks to ensure nobody was caught in the closing doors. Of course you could also ignore that risk and just drive away anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest I think you're both right on this in different ways. Passengers shouldn't need to be told, but the industry could do more to encourage better passenger behaviours. Instead of the rules about obstructing doors being hidden away in the byelaws, there could be much more conspicuous publicity.

Much as it would grate, I bet someone could come up with an earworm like "See it, say it, sorted" to publicise this matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry but the safety critical part starts when the person operating the doors chooses to close them - the doors do not automatically close.

To choose to close them whilst you still see people boarding is taking a risk. If someone chooses to take that risk, fair enough, they are taking that gamble.

Indeed. It is possible that closing the doors on someone could see them knocked by the door and fall down the gap.

 

[ComUtoR]

To be honest I think you're both right on this in different ways. Passengers shouldn't need to be told, but the industry could do more to encourage better passenger behaviours.

They are. Hence rail staff continually saying not to board when the alarm is sounding and the posters and announcements at stations too. Maybe a more hard hitting campaign is needed.

Sorry but the safety critical part starts when the person operating the doors chooses to close them - the doors do not automatically close.

2/3 of the units I sign have doors that close automatically.

 

[bramling]

They are. Hence rail staff continually saying not to board when the alarm is sounding and the posters and announcements at stations too.

With the caveat that I'm not a regular user of the Southeastern corner of the railway, and whilst I don't doubt these things happen, I think it's fair to say they're by no means commonplace. In fact, I'm finding it hard to recall *ever* hearing such an announcement on a mainline journey.

It does happen on LU, however in all honesty it's not something which is encouraged. The moment a driver gets a complaint, they'll generally be told to wind their neck in.

Maybe a more hard hitting campaign is needed.

Fully agreed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2/3 of the units I sign have doors that close automatically.

Though not if obstructed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the caveat that I'm not a regular user of the Southeastern corner of the railway, and whilst I don't doubt these things happen, I think it's fair to say they're by no means commonplace. In fact, I'm finding it hard to recall *ever* hearing such an announcement on a mainline journey.

Nor I, and the stickers say "Do not attempt to board the train while the doors are closing", not "Do not attempt to board the train while the hustle alarms are sounding", not to mention as others have said the term "hustle alarm" says "hurry up and get on", not "stand away".

 

[bramling]

Indeed. It is possible that closing the doors on someone could see them knocked by the door and fall down the gap.

Sounds like a good reason for passengers taking more responsibility for their actions - someone can still board after the sequence has started, and the driver can't be focusing on potentially 24 doorways all at the same time. In any case, most rolling stock has doors which close without driver intervention - either passenger close buttons, or auto close to preserve the effectiveness of the air conditioning. Even LU has the latter on the S stock.

 

[bramling]

Nor I, and the stickers say "Do not attempt to board the train while the doors are closing", not "Do not attempt to board the train while the hustle alarms are sounding", not to mention as others have said the term "hustle alarm" says "hurry up and get on", not "stand away".

Actually, I tell a lie, I've just remembered there was a pre-recorded announcement on the 365s which was worded something along the lines of "Ladies & gentlemen, here is a special announcement to help you with alighting and boarding. Please stand clear of the doors when the hustle alarm sounds, and do not attempt to board or alight." Very rarely heard though, as only used on the driver's prerogative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This:

"here is a special announcement"

is of course railway code for "this announcement has no value and can be ignored".

 

[bramling]

This:

"here is a special announcement"

is of course railway code for "this announcement has no value and can be ignored".

This was the 1990s remember, before announcements became wallpaper and management's solution to any & every problem!

 

[ComUtoR]

Nor I, and the stickers say "Do not attempt to board the train while the doors are closing", not "Do not attempt to board the train while the hustle alarms are sounding", not to mention as others have said the term "hustle alarm" says "hurry up and get on", not "stand away".

So if the sticker says do not board when the doors are closing and you are fully aware that the door alarm means that they are closing you still want a specific statement that includes the words 'hustle alarm'

Aren't we supposed to be moving away from the continual announcements. This just proves why there are so many.

 

[sefton]

Nor I, and the stickers say "Do not attempt to board the train while the doors are closing", not "Do not attempt to board the train while the hustle alarms are sounding", not to mention as others have said the term "hustle alarm" says "hurry up and get on", not "stand away".

"hustle alarm" is a term that means nothing at all to 99.999% of people. Information needs to be given in plain English.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if the sticker says do not board when the doors are closing and you are fully aware that the door alarm means that they are closing you still want a specific statement that includes the words 'hustle alarm'

Aren't we supposed to be moving away from the continual announcements. This just proves why there are so many.

The hustle alarm means that the doors are about to close. The doors are closing when their leaves have started to move towards one another. At the point the alarm is sounding they are going to close but they are not closing.

Basic English.

"Do not attempt to board the train once the door closing alarms have started to sound" would be better.

If you want people to follow a rule, the very first thing to do is to make sure that rule is clear and unambiguous. Personally, I do not believe a Byelaw prosecution would succeed when the signage uses the wording it does - that is quite enough to deem it inadequate.

 

[ComUtoR]

The alarm sounds as the doors are closing. It doesn't stop when the 'leaves' start to move. SO at the point in which the alarm is sounding, the doors are in fact, moving. It's pointless and dangerous hair splitting. If you hear the alarm, move away. To promote anything other than that is encouraging people to do something potentially dangerous and potentially lead to a trap and drag incident.

Why you would want to do that is beyond me.

 

[mmh]

Manual "the doors are about to close, stand clear of the closing doors" type annoucements are commonplace on Southern DOO trains at busy times of day and stations.

 

[mmh]

I agree with @ComUtoR that perhaps a hard hitting campaign would be useful. In the past I must have jumped on trains countless times.

Since then I read about the West Wickham PTI incident. I wouldn't do it again.

 

[bramling]

The alarm sounds as the doors are closing. It doesn't stop when the 'leaves' start to move. SO at the point in which the alarm is sounding, the doors are in fact, moving. It's pointless and dangerous hair splitting. If you hear the alarm, move away. To promote anything other than that is encouraging people to do something potentially dangerous and potentially lead to a trap and drag incident.

Why you would want to do that is beyond me.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, I do think you're looking at things from an informed viewpoint. To many passengers the hustle alarm probably doesn't mean anything at all!

 

[Meerkat]

The very phrase “hustle alarm” implies ‘hurry up and get through these doors’.
It’s a ‘do something’ term, not a ‘stop doing something’ term

 

[bramling]

The very phrase “hustle alarm” implies ‘hurry up and get through these doors’.
It’s a ‘do something’ term, not a ‘stop doing something’ term

To be fair, the term hustle alarm rarely if ever enters passenger-facing language - indeed the announcement I referred to on the 365s normally raised sniggers and inquisitive looks from passengers. "Warning tone" sounds more appropriate. LU refer to "door chimes", which is probably also rather meaningless to the average punter.

 

[mmh]

The term "hustle alarm" really doesn't matter. I've never heard it used outside this forum, and being a train nerd I'm more observant than most using the railway.

I disagree that normal passengers don't know what it means, it's obvious. What else could it mean?

 

[mmh]

To be fair, the term hustle alarm rarely if ever enters passenger-facing language - indeed the announcement I referred to on the 365s normally raised sniggers and inquisitive looks from passengers. "Warning tone" sounds more appropriate. LU refer to "door chimes", which is probably also rather meaningless to the average punter.

Agreed, "door chimes" sounds like more internal-speak which shouldn't reach the public.

"Door chimes" to the average person means a ding-dong doorbell.

 

[bramling]

The term "hustle alarm" really doesn't matter. I've never heard it used outside this forum, and being a train nerd I'm more observant than most using the railway.

I disagree that normal passengers don't know what it means, it's obvious. What else could it mean?

To me the issue is that passengers know it means the doors are about to close. What it clearly *doesn't* signify to people is "the doors are about to close - FROM NOW ON DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BOARD OR ALIGHT", or if does most choose to ignore that. It's the second part of that where the industry needs to do a little work IMO.

Having said that, one can make a very clear announcement "the doors are now closing, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO JOIN THE TRAIN NOW", and many will still ignore... Hence why retrospective announcements targeted at individuals are perhaps more effective, but as soon as a complaint comes in that the driver was nasty management will often tell the driver to back off in future.