passenger power gets the right result.

[43167]

On my way back from the ship-ex's today, I did a Scarborough-Liverpool from York which was formed of 2x185's. On arrival some passengers headed towards the back set, but the guard wanted everyone in the front set with the lame excuse of isnt only been pulled. So it was front set full and standing, back set empty.

However, he was coming off at York so, a passenger asked the new guard if the back set was going to be opened up, and it was, so me & 5 others transfered to the other set as common sence was seen for once. Which was just aswell as even more passengers boarded at Leeds.

It really annoys me when a train is formed of more than 1 set, but the crew only use one for passengers, especially if its busy.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

isnt only been pulled

?????

 

[mumrar]

but the guard wanted everyone in the front set with the lame excuse of isnt only been pulled.

Erm......what? The lame excuse of 'isn't only been pulled'? You did notice the UK part of the forum name didn't you?

 

[ukrob]

Not really sure why it is 'passenger power'?

For all you know there may have been an instruction to open up the second set at York or Leeds anyway.

 

[43167]

Sorry. Ment to say 'Its just been pulled' is what the guard said referring to the rear unit.

 

[Mojo]

I was expecting this thread to be about successful campaigns mounted by passengers or local residents to get improved services at their local station!

I don't know the route in question but is there a chance the platforms at a certain point are two short for two units and SDO is unavailable; or perhaps there is a requirement for two members of staff, etc?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Sorry. Ment to say 'Its just been pulled' is what the guard said referring to the rear unit.

So it was taken out of service? Pretty good reason not to allow people in then!

 

[Darandio]

I am taking "pulled" as meaning "dragged".

 

[43167]

So it was taken out of service? Pretty good reason not to allow people in then!

No. if it was defective then I somehow doubt it would have been opened up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am taking "pulled" as meaning "dragged".

No. Thats what he said. But both sets were powering.

 

[Darandio]

I think there is a simple and rational explanation.

When two sets are together, the train would require two guards. Initially, there was only one available but presumably when it got to Leeds (if I have this right) the changover involved two guards coming on board, one for each?

 

[455driver]

Happens everyday on SWT with the 458s, they run from Alton with the back 4 (of 8) locked out and they are opened up from Ascot to Waterloo, with the opposite happening in the evening.

Not exactly "people power" and unless you know the exact circumstances for this route, platform lengths etc, neither was this.

 

[Mojo]

When two sets are together, the train would require two guards. Initially, there was only one available but presumably when it got to Leeds (if I have this right) the changover involved two guards coming on board, one for each?

Not necessarily, unless this is a specific requirement of TPE/class 185s. I can think of plenty of examples of trains with no corridors operating in multiple where there is only one guard on board, who remains in the rearmost unit.

 

[43167]

Ok. People/passenger power was probably the wrong term to use.

The only place where there maybe an issue withplatform length is Seamer, but Ive seen pairs leave Scarborough with passengers in both before.

 

[222666]

It is a bit baffling to passengers why they do this, I've been in a failed portion of 2 x 170 with no interior lights but we stayed in it all the way up the MML!

But this sounds a bit 'jobs worthy', like the additional space reserved ONLY for the Leeds - Liverpool leg? They forget that people will be getting off at Leeds, not just boarding ?

 

[Ferret]

It is a bit baffling to passengers why they do this, I've been in a failed portion of 2 x 170 with no interior lights but we stayed in it all the way up the MML!

But this sounds a bit 'jobs worthy', like the additional space reserved ONLY for the Leeds - Liverpool leg? They forget that people will be getting off at Leeds, not just boarding ?

It could be a crewing thing - you regular see Voyagers running in pairs but with one locked out of use. The reason being you have to have a member of staff in each set, and the driver doesn't count! So, one driver and one TM equals one set LOOU. I've had to run a wedged 4 car with an empty 4 car tacked on the back. Slightly embarassing situation but rather that than a chat with the boss and a reet old rollocking!

 

[mallard]

I can think of plenty of examples of trains with no corridors operating in multiple where there is only one guard on board, who remains in the rearmost unit.

Yeah, the first time I used the SouthEastern HS service back in December, I remember the guard announcing that he would be in the rear set for "safety reasons" then mentioned that he would be performing a ticket check... Basically announcing that fare-dodgers would be safe in the front set!

 

[Mojo]

It could be a crewing thing - you regular see Voyagers running in pairs but with one locked out of use. The reason being you have to have a member of staff in each set, and the driver doesn't count! So, one driver and one TM equals one set LOOU. I've had to run a wedged 4 car with an empty 4 car tacked on the back. Slightly embarassing situation but rather that than a chat with the boss and a reet old rollocking!

Does an RSM still count as a second member of staff? Back when I was working last summer I had a number of trains where the front unit was staffed with a RSM and the rear with a Train Manager.

Those without tickets in the front unit, and if you've brought a packed lunch please use the rear unit!

 

[ukrob]

It could be a crewing thing - you regular see Voyagers running in pairs but with one locked out of use. The reason being you have to have a member of staff in each set, and the driver doesn't count! So, one driver and one TM equals one set LOOU. I've had to run a wedged 4 car with an empty 4 car tacked on the back. Slightly embarassing situation but rather that than a chat with the boss and a reet old rollocking!

Is that a TOC decision or a decision mandated by the stock being used?

I only ask because it is certainly not true on other TOCs who use other stock.

 

[CarterUSM]

Is that a TOC decision or a decision mandated by the stock being used?

I only ask because it is certainly not true on other TOCs who use other stock.

It could be both, but mainly the former in my view. The latter would no doubt encompass coupling issues with some units, though i think this is a relative rarity nowadays.

 

[jopsuk]

There are (as we've been through before) certainly DOO operators that operate non-corridor stock in multiple (up to three units) with only one member of staff- NXEA do with 321s and 360s, FCC do with 365s (and double 321s)

 

[Ferret]

Does an RSM still count as a second member of staff? Back when I was working last summer I had a number of trains where the front unit was staffed with a RSM and the rear with a Train Manager.

Those without tickets in the front unit, and if you've brought a packed lunch please use the rear unit!

Yeah, an RSM counts. If you have 2 RSMs then the TM can hop between sets at stations and ching the whole train eventually, if he's feeling keen!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is that a TOC decision or a decision mandated by the stock being used?

I only ask because it is certainly not true on other TOCs who use other stock.

Yeah, I've noticed Northern using 1 driver and 1 Guard for a double set. It's all down to the individual TOC's own operating manuals - XC/VT specify a member of staff in each set not including the driver on Voyagers, but yet XC 170s can run in pairs with just 1 Senior Conductor.

 

[mumrar]

Yep, XC have kept that arrangement for the 170s from Central Trains days. It's probably one of many reasons (including a lack of €s) that they won't harmonise I guess, but that's for a different thread....

 

[Chester025]

Never mind who did it, a nice quiet unwedged train back across the Pennines, lovely! I assume this is the 1838 off York you are talking about?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

When class 185's operate in multiple to Scarborough they are too long for the platforms at Seamer and Malton, the only two intermediate stations. The units do not have Selective Door Opening. They do however have a system called Unit Door Blocking. This allows you to lock out all the doors in the rearmost unit by flicking a switch, and not having to lock each door manually.

What this means, however, is that at Scarborough any passengers going to Malton or Seamer need to be in the front 3 coaches only. As there is no gangway connection this needs to happen before the train leaves Scarborough, otherwise they are trapped there till York.

Now, don't ask me why some sort of system was in place to sort this out, because I don't sign beyond York, however, I am pretty sure I saw an instruction of some sort the other year saying that the back unit must be locked out between York and Scarborough- although I can't remember the reason why.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
By the way, this rumour that you need a member of staff on each set is rubbish. There is no operational rule book instruction which requires this.

 

[Ferret]

By the way, this rumour that you need a member of staff on each set is rubbish. There is no operational rule book instruction which requires this.

Hmmm, for TPE/Northern that may be the case, but it's in black & white in XC's Working Instructions for 220/221.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Hmmm, for TPE/Northern that may be the case, but it's in black & white in XC's Working Instructions for 220/221.

That is an operational instruction required by the Train Operator, not, as far as I know, a rule book requirement imposed by RSSB.

 

[caliwag]

Well...Leeds o York (via Harrogate) can often be a 150 bolted to a 142 or 153
So no corridor connection...I do find it odd because at around 4.00 it's full of short-haul school kids. Most times I travel from Knaresborough to York I have not been checked, but I have a priv pass so i don't fell guilty

 

[Ferret]

That is an operational instruction required by the Train Operator, not, as far as I know, a rule book requirement imposed by RSSB.

Correct! Tbh, I don't know if you were just referring to TPE in your previous post or not, just wanted to clarify that on some TOCS it is a requirement, regardless of whether it's in the rulebook or not.

 

[yorkie]

It is a bit baffling to passengers why they do this, I've been in a failed portion of 2 x 170 with no interior lights but we stayed in it all the way up the MML!

But this sounds a bit 'jobs worthy', like the additional space reserved ONLY for the Leeds - Liverpool leg? They forget that people will be getting off at Leeds, not just boarding ?

Be careful saying that - a passenger told me that if you say something is "jobs worthy" in earshot of the small bald guy at Newport, he will threaten to ban you from the station on the basis that he is being "abused"! Someone else told me he has been acting rudely at Gloucester too.

To be fair, sometimes staff HAVE to be 'jobs worthy' (ie, imposing rules strictly) for safety reasons, or simply because the rule book says so (even if we can debate the safety issue, the rules have to be followed), otherwise they could face the sack.

 

[43167]

Never mind who did it, a nice quiet unwedged train back across the Pennines, lovely! I assume this is the 1838 off York you are talking about?

Yes it was.