Passenger numbers vs revenue

[Rich McLean]

The train companies absolutely want this to happen. At the moment the cannot do this because of fares regulation, which they want to abolish.

There is no perfect solution but what we have at the moment is much better than pricing people off at weekends.

Correct, but it has to be accepted that taxpayers will have to plug the shortfall if things are to stay as is.

 

[baz962]

Who wants to pay £5k to commute into London ? This revenue side of things will never recover, now employees can work over Zoom.

Lower season ticket prices to lure people back ! The only way….

To be honest , I don't see that working too much. Why pay any price and commute for any length of time if you don't need to.

 

[jayah]

I think lot of it is cost. I know diesel prices are going up astronomically, nog really the DaFT's fault but they're not exactly a big help in scything. However the cost vs driving plus the times don't exactly invite custom.
For example. I've just priced up a potential visit to Rails of Sheffield from here in Rugby.

In the interests of fairness I went for a weekday and got a shortest journey time of 1 hour 36 minutes with z change at Tamworth, which for a journey of that length is fairly respectable. It's comparable to driving, which can get me to Rails' shop front in 1h 22 minutes so pretty comparable.

The cost, however is double. It would cost me about £20 in diesel to drive but around £60 to go by train. As a result I'd drive. If I could find a ticket price that compared, even for £30 I'd definitely go by train, however with these prices it would seriously eat into my budget for buying stuff. Basically I'll use the Web to buy products and much as I'd love to go by train and visit the shop, for me the cost is prohibitive. People might say I could save some money with a railcard but that means dragging an unwilling partner and (probably slightly less unwilling) kid along. Hence I wouldn't actually save any money.

Really if the railway industry wants to get people back 'through the door' as it were they need to consider the fares and maybe restructure them

So time- wise it's comparable if I go in the week and don't mind a tram ride. No complaints there.

Costwise, I think I'll stick to the web until it gets cheaper to take the car. But I suppose that depends on the ongoing oil situation in Europe and inflation wages etc. Maybe we're all in the same boat there.

The time to reform fares was probably when demand was at base zero. It is too close to what it was to avoid all the old problems - you can't simplify without getting rid of tickets with time restrictions and you can make price Anytime as Off Peak without costing a fortune.

So the current mess with high Anytime prices, confusing time restrictions and the long standing anomalies with single fares and splits remain.

Even sorting the position on local railcards e.g. Network or Devon & Cornwall that don't exist in most other parts of the country seems a bridge too far.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2022 ==

The train companies absolutely want this to happen. At the moment the cannot do this because of fares regulation, which they want to abolish.

There is no perfect solution but what we have at the moment is much better than pricing people off at weekends.

Sunday afternoon would be fine if they didn't cut the service in half and then cancel half of what was left.

We can't wait 15 years for new contracts to take effect, there should be a weekday level of service on long distance and inter regional routes and it should run without routine cancellations.

 

[paul1609]

The problem is not just revenue its also costs. Although my preserved railway doesn't currently offer any wage increases we are seeing cost increases of on average around 35-40 %pa once you take in to account power, fuel lubricating oil and engineering. Mainline rail probably isn't as badly affected as preservation but I wouldn't mind betting its cost inflation is still a whole lot worse than RPI.

 

[jayah]

Indeed. I was on a wedged Coastway service today that should have been longer than four carriages. With the PEP units and the 455's going, it's hard to see how this is going to improve.

That said, the long Thameslinky trains were proving their worth at shifting the masses on the BML.

I am not sure how they reached the decision to cut the West Worthing trains and overload / slow down what was already pretty crowded and slow even before.

SE England is replete with fresh air being carted around and they need to think this stuff through.

 

[DJ_K666]

Strangely enough I managed to get a £16.50 fare for Chester in July. Its on a Saturday so not too many rail replacement buses. Plus once weve spent a couple of hours looking at the layout and chatting with the operators theres the architecture of the cathedral to see and the whole historic city centre to look at too. Bonus! Not to mention the model railway shop to go in as well...

 

[class26]

The gap would be even smaller if Revenue Protection was even loosely enforced with some TOC's

or on my line the revenue would be greater if the guard actually bothered to sell tickets to passengers where there are no ticket offices. Over 50% of the time I get free journeys, as do many who board at Heckington. Yesterday I travelled to Sleaford as did 12 other passengers on the 16.06, all travelling free as there was no sign of the guard coming down the train. Last month I travelled to Nottingham and despite there being a change of guard at Grantham neither bothered to walk down the train. Of course i always volunteer the fare where I can (ie at Nottingham on arrival) but yesterday, as the ticket office at Sleaford closes after lunch this was impossible. I do wonder how this affects investment decisions as the true passenger numbers and fare revenue is being distorted

 

[DJ_K666]

I am not sure how they reached the decision to cut the West Worthing trains and overload / slow down what was already pretty crowded and slow even before.

SE England is replete with fresh air being carted around and they need to think this stuff through.

Really there should be at least one fast train each hour or two. There used to be a Brighton to Portsmouth & Southsea fast every couple of hours that went Hove, Shoreham, Worthing, Barnham Chichester, Havant Fratton and Portsmouth S/S. The Shoreham and then Hove stops were added in. It was route code 60 iirc There was a stopper every 20 minutes. One to West Worthing, One to Littlehampton and one to Portsmouth Harbour as well as a London to Portsmouth/Littlehampton splitter (at Worthing) which later went to Southampton and eventually Bournemouth. There was a twice a day Brighton to Cardiff train, originally 33/0 +5 mk1s then a 155 and later usually a 158. I used to use this to get to school on.
Connex kept things pretty much to this pattern although they linked the East and West Coastway services using platform 3 at Brighton (they were much maligned but that would have been handy during my time commuting to Hove from Eastbourne.) Then Southern started adding in random small stops on what we're supposed to be fast services and slowing things down and this made getting anywhere a chore.

Really the West Worthing was a leftover of when the electric trains ran to there from 1933. Anything going further was steam hauled.

For a bonus point (and no cheating) who can remember the original name of the current Hove station?

 

[E27007]

I think lot of it is cost. I know diesel prices are going up astronomically, nog really the DaFT's fault but they're not exactly a big help in scything. However the cost vs driving plus the times don't exactly invite custom.
For example. I've just priced up a potential visit to Rails of Sheffield from here in Rugby.

In the interests of fairness I went for a weekday and got a shortest journey time of 1 hour 36 minutes with z change at Tamworth, which for a journey of that length is fairly respectable. It's comparable to driving, which can get me to Rails' shop front in 1h 22 minutes so pretty comparable.

The cost, however is double. It would cost me about £20 in diesel to drive but around £60 to go by train. As a result I'd drive. If I could find a ticket price that compared, even for £30 I'd definitely go by train, however with these prices it would seriously eat into my budget for buying stuff. Basically I'll use the Web to buy products and much as I'd love to go by train and visit the shop, for me the cost is prohibitive. People might say I could save some money with a railcard but that means dragging an unwilling partner and (probably slightly less unwilling) kid along. Hence I wouldn't actually save any money.

Really if the railway industry wants to get people back 'through the door' as it were they need to consider the fares and maybe restructure them

So time- wise it's comparable if I go in the week and don't mind a tram ride. No complaints there.

Costwise, I think I'll stick to the web until it gets cheaper to take the car. But I suppose that depends on the ongoing oil situation in Europe and inflation wages etc. Maybe we're all in the same boat there.

£60 by train, £20 of fuel by car. Do you have a price for the round trip if you travel by a Coach service?

 

[Class 170101]

Here's a controversial thought: why don't they make season tickets cheaper? It might just propel some uncertains into taking the plunge so revenue increases. I purchase an annual season, but have had to amend my choice of ticket because it has become too expensive. (I no longer have zones 1-6 covered, just zones 4-6, on the rare occasions venture into z1 I will have to buy an extra ticket).

Seasons are already cheap. If you think they are expensive don't buy a season but buy a ticket every day, it won't be cheaper than your season.

£60 by train, £20 of fuel by car. Do you have a price for the round trip if you travel by a Coach service?

But what about all the other car costs that you haven't accounted for? Should be divided by each journey you make surely?

 

[87 027]

Seasons are already cheap. If you think they are expensive don't buy a season but buy a ticket every day, it won't be cheaper than your season.

I started doing that a couple of years ago, within the London zones PAYG with Oyster daily/weekly capping did in my case work out marginally cheaper. And boy was I glad of that when the pandemic struck as there was no money tied up to be refunded!

But what about all the other car costs that you haven't accounted for? Should be divided by each journey you make surely?

Yes and no. As per numerous threads elsewhere that just isn't the mindset of most car owners. Most people accept that owning a car carries overheads in exchange for the convenience and once that is accepted then it is a comparison of marginal costs or immediate cash flows that matters. There was a period in my life where I calculated on a total cost of ownership basis that it wasn't worth owning a car, so I didn't for several years and went everywhere by bike, bus and train. But circumstances changed and once I was committed to those costs it's a different calculation.

 

[Runningaround]

Seasons are already cheap. If you think they are expensive don't buy a season but buy a ticket every day, it won't be cheaper than your season.


But what about all the other car costs that you haven't accounted for? Should be divided by each journey you make surely?

What about passengers in the car? Adding a wife and two kids doesn't increase the fuel bill as much as a train fare can and you can't halve or more the cost of a train ticket like you can with car sharing.

 

[Watershed]

Seasons are already cheap. If you think they are expensive don't buy a season but buy a ticket every day, it won't be cheaper than your season.

In most cases they aren't cheap by any measure, and driving is far cheaper. What they are is cheaper than buying daily tickets, if you commute 5 days a week. Any less than that and it depends.

 

[DJ_K666]

£60 by train, £20 of fuel by car. Do you have a price for the round trip if you travel by a Coach service?

Based on travelling on Saturday 16th July

Megabus
£9.88 based on Coventry Pool Meadow DEP 1230 Birmingham Brunel Street ARR 1310
Change coach
Birmingham Brunel Street DEP 1450
Sheffield Meadowhall ARR1710
That's OK on price but the timings make it a definite no-go.

National Distress
£13.20 based on Coventry 1035 DEP- Sheffield Digbeth Coach station 1125 ARR
Change coach
1200 DEP
Sheffield Pond Street 1400 ARR

So again. Cost wise it's fine. Time wise definitely not.

Looks like using coaches is a waste of time unless you've got several weeks for your journey. I'd start that journey clean shaven and have a full beard when I arrived...

 

[yorksrob]

I am not sure how they reached the decision to cut the West Worthing trains and overload / slow down what was already pretty crowded and slow even before.

SE England is replete with fresh air being carted around and they need to think this stuff through.

The Coastway services have always struck me as having characteristics similar to urban metro services, in that they are well used by passengers throughout the day but less prestigious than London commuter services.

The Coastway's ought to be better resourced for what they do, however I fear that the rush to withdraw both the 455 and PEP fleets will leave the railway with a fleet that is just too overstretched to provide the capacity needed.

 

[Jurg]

Based on travelling on Saturday 16th July

Megabus
£9.88 based on Coventry Pool Meadow DEP 1230 Birmingham Brunel Street ARR 1310
Change coach
Birmingham Brunel Street DEP 1450
Sheffield Meadowhall ARR1710
That's OK on price but the timings make it a definite no-go.

National Distress
£13.20 based on Coventry 1035 DEP- Sheffield Digbeth Coach station 1125 ARR
Change coach
1200 DEP
Sheffield Pond Street 1400 ARR

So again. Cost wise it's fine. Time wise definitely not.

Looks like using coaches is a waste of time unless you've got several weeks for your journey. I'd start that journey clean shaven and have a full beard when I arrived...

Having had a quick look you can get the train down to £40 return easily by splitting the ticket at Derby. £30-35 is possible by split advance fares going via Nuneaton and Leicester, but that adds about an hour on each way.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The railway either needs to adopt single leg pricing fully or go full demand based pricing.

But for a public service, I don't want my regular journey becoming more expensive because Jack and Jill want to take their kids to Windermere for the day (or many similar).

The system we have at the moment is a bodge. But it does need to be one or the other.

 

[yorksrob]

Walk on fares, particularly for shorter and intermediate distance journeys need to be a lot more competitive for households.

 

[DJ_K666]

Having had a quick look you can get the train down to £40 return easily by splitting the ticket at Derby. £30-35 is possible by split advance fares going via Nuneaton and Leicester, but that adds about an hour on each way.

That's good to know. I'll try running it through the train splitter site.

 

[43066]

But for a public service, I don't want my regular journey becoming more expensive because Jack and Jill want to take their kids to Windermere for the day (or many similar).

If you have a regular season ticket, why should your low per-journey price be massively subsidised by people paying more for walk up fares?

Why should cheap advance tickets be subsidised by walk up fare payers?

As a railway passenger why should you be subsidised by the tax payer at all?

Hopefully you can see the point I’m making.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2022 ==

SE England is replete with fresh air being carted around and they need to think this stuff through.

As someone who travels on trains all over SE England, virtually every day, I can confirm this is complete nonsense.

 

[Agent_Squash]

If you have a regular season ticket, why should your low per-journey price be massively subsidised by people paying more for walk up fares?

I don’t buy a season ticket - I buy a anytime day return and use my railcard discount as it’s cheaper - even with the £12 minimum fare.

Anomalies like that should really be ironed out, too!

 

[43066]

I don’t buy a season ticket - I buy a anytime day return and use my railcard discount as it’s cheaper - even with the £12 minimum fare.

Anomalies like that should really be ironed out, too!

We can probably agree that the current system is too complex.

I don’t think there can be any real objection to the principle of certain tickets subsidising others, though, when the whole industry inevitably requires *some* level of subsidy. Most businesses segment their markets (which accounts for the expensive anytime v cheaper-but-less flexibile-advance), and the “social utility” aspect of the railway means it’s desirable for certain types of travel to be more heavily subsidised - eg students and other railcard holders.

 

[E27007]

In most cases they aren't cheap by any measure, and driving is far cheaper. What they are is cheaper than buying daily tickets, if you commute 5 days a week. Any less than that and it depends.

London-bound railway commuters have been a captive market for many years, subjected to ever increasing season ticket prices, with few alternatives, especially car driving, the cost of parking a car in Central London is the preserve of the company car driver and the well-off, £40 a day and more to park, plus the daily congestion charge will buy a long-distance season ticket. It would sem that post-covid, that captive market has shrunk. There were commuter clubs who ran motorway coaches into London in the morning and out again in the evening, the coaches used to park up during the day in the area in which I live (much to the annoyance of residents) the drivers would leave their engines idling all day during the layover. those coaches are absent these days, Do those commuter coach clubs still exist?

 

[Watershed]

London-bound commuters have been a captive market for many years, few alternatives, especially car driving, the cost of parking a car in Central London is the preserve of the company car driver and the well-off, £40 a day and more to park, plus the daily congestion charge will buy a long-distance season ticket. There were commuter clubs who ran motorway coaches into London in the morning and out again in the evening, the coaches used to park up during the day in the area in which i live (much to the annoyance of residents) the drivers would leave their engines idling all day during the layover. Do these commuter coach clubs still exist?

Railheading to somewhere on the outskirts of London is often a lot cheaper than taking the train all the way.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Really there should be at least one fast train each hour or two. There used to be a Brighton to Portsmouth & Southsea fast every couple of hours that went Hove, Shoreham, Worthing, Barnham Chichester, Havant Fratton and Portsmouth S/S. The Shoreham and then Hove stops were added in. It was route code 60 iirc There was a stopper every 20 minutes. One to West Worthing, One to Littlehampton and one to Portsmouth Harbour as well as a London to Portsmouth/Littlehampton splitter (at Worthing) which later went to Southampton and eventually Bournemouth. There was a twice a day Brighton to Cardiff train, originally 33/0 +5 mk1s then a 155 and later usually a 158. I used to use this to get to school on.
Connex kept things pretty much to this pattern although they linked the East and West Coastway services using platform 3 at Brighton (they were much maligned but that would have been handy during my time commuting to Hove from Eastbourne.) Then Southern started adding in random small stops on what we're supposed to be fast services and slowing things down and this made getting anywhere a chore.

Really the West Worthing was a leftover of when the electric trains ran to there from 1933. Anything going further was steam hauled.

For a bonus point (and no cheating) who can remember the original name of the current Hove station?

Holland Road?

 

[Ken H]

To be honest , I don't see that working too much. Why pay any price and commute for any length of time if you don't need to.

Commuting cost isnt just about cash. Its about time. WFH you finish at 5, and can eat with the kids, read to them etc. Instead of rolling in at 7 completely knackered, eating a warmed up meal and going to bed at 9 cos you are up at 0630 to do it all again.
Been there, got the tee shirt, ate the stew. Its cr@p.

 

[baz962]

Commuting cost isnt just about cash. Its about time. WFH you finish at 5, and can eat with the kids, read to them etc. Instead of rolling in at 7 completely knackered, eating a warmed up meal and going to bed at 9 cos you are up at 0630 to do it all again.
Been there, got the tee shirt, ate the stew. Its cr@p.

Which is why I said why commute for any length of time if you don't have to. I'm saying that you could make commuting practically free and most still wouldn't come back if they can work from home. Maybe a few , but not many.

 

[philosopher]

Which is why I said why commute for any length of time if you don't have to. I'm saying that you could make commuting practically free and most still wouldn't come back if they can work from home. Maybe a few , but not many.

There are some reasons why people may choose to commute even if they don’t have too. Some may not have suitable space to work from home, some like the greater social interaction that occurs in offices. Others may prefer work and personal lives to be kept separate.

It could be argued though that those who live further from their office are those most likely to prefer working from home. Housing tends to be cheaper further away from large cities, so those living there are likely to have adquate space to work from home. So those with the more lucrative commutes will be commuting less than those with less financially lucrative commutes.

 

[baz962]

There are some reasons why people may choose to commute even if they don’t have too. Some may not have suitable space to work from home, some like the greater social interaction that occurs in offices. Others may prefer work and personal lives to be kept separate.

It could be argued though that those who live further from their office are those most likely to prefer working from home. Housing tends to be cheaper further away from large cities, so those living there are likely to have adquate space to work from home. So those with the more lucrative commutes will be commuting less than those with less financially lucrative commutes.

Of course. I know some people that left jobs that insist on WFH after lockdown ended , just so they could go back to an office. However those are probably in a minority and also anyone already wanting to be in an office, will probably already be doing so and so reducing commuting costs won't affect much. Those that want WFH won't be tempted back and those in offices will already be going back in , save some minimum exceptions.

 

[dk1]

Commuting cost isnt just about cash. Its about time. WFH you finish at 5, and can eat with the kids, read to them etc. Instead of rolling in at 7 completely knackered, eating a warmed up meal and going to bed at 9 cos you are up at 0630 to do it all again.
Been there, got the tee shirt, ate the stew. Its cr@p.

I can’t imagine eating my evening meal before 20:00 & you’ve missed the best bit which is socialising in the pub after work.