Passenger Numbers on Gatwick Express

[Adrian Render]

Hi Everyone

Does anyone have any rough passenger numbers for the Gatwick Express? I spoke to the ORR and they don't dis-aggregate the GTR train figures according to the different brands. I asked GTR and they refused to give me any sort of idea at all.

So any help would be of interest. Many thanks!

 

[Bromley boy]

Out of interest, what is the reason for the request?

 

[rishtonlad]

I caught the 18:00 from Gatwick on Saturday and I was in the 2nd carriage from the front and I was the only on in. On arrival at Victoria there appear to be no more the about a dozen people heading from the barriers.

 

[IanXC]

Do the DfT's consultation documents before the franchise award have anything to say? I wonder if they justified the dedicated service based on its passenger numbers?

 

[Adrian Render]

Out of interest, what is the reason for the request?

Just out of interest. It seems to be a closely guarded secret, which has got me interested!

 

[hwl]

Just out of interest. It seems to be a closely guarded secret, which has got me interested!

Also worth Noting that GatEx also run a fair number of the Brighton services as 50% of GatEx go south of Gatwick.

 

[Clip]

Just out of interest. It seems to be a closely guarded secret, which has got me interested!

And youll probably find out that its commercially sensitive information - if they could ever tell you as the only real numbers that have will be the GatEx tickets sold and that will never be a true reflection of service numbers

 

[Railcar]

Gatwick Express trains usually pass East Croydon Platform 3 sufficiently slowly that a rough headcount is possible.

I'd say that rishtonlad was about right - those trains are simply moving fresh air between London and Sussex.

By contrast, the 377s doing the bread and butter runs to and from the south coast are frequently jammed between Gatwick and Victoria, with cases clogging up the gangways and vestibules because those 377s have no areas for large luggage.

 

[Tunnel Bore]

The peak-time trains extend to/from Brighton are generally full (full and standing where the airport passengers get on and just full elsewhere). Off-peak or Gatwick starters in shoulder are carry a lot of fresh air. I change onto the 07:35 Gatwick starter most mornings and it is a haven of peace and quiet compare to the Southern and Thameslink services.

 

[GatwickDepress]

From personal experience back when I was 'copping' the Class 442 units previously used on the service, I noticed the trains pretty much carted around empty air for most of the day and doubt that it has changed much - with the exception of the Brighton extenders. I've always wondered whether the service exists as more of a concession to airport management rather than anything that benefits passengers and utilises the Brighton line's capacity to its fullest.

Maybe I should try the Fare Advice and Policy's subforum's perennial hobby of using Southern DaySaver tickets on the Brighton extenders this weekend...

 

[yorkie]

hwl - I think this is what you meant to say...

Also worth noting that GTR brand around 50% of their Victoria to Brighton services as 'Gatwick Express'.

... with apologies if that seems like pedantry

To answer the question as best I can...

Trains that just serve Gatwick & Victoria cart mostly fresh air around (except on Sundays).

However in the morning peak, tourists may struggle to board at Gatwick as the trains can be full on arrival.

The standard off peak pattern from Brighton is for faster trains departing xx58 and xx28 which the company brands "Southern" typically taking 56min (one of which calls at Gatwick, while the other calls at nearby Horley instead), while the company also runs slightly slower trains departing xx48 and xx18 branded "Express" (the journey time being longer because allowance is made for extended dwell time at Gatwick Airport station), see http://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=BTN&dest=VIC&odate=20180508&otime=1050&maxres=19&maxch=0

The company may hold records of surveys carried out on its trains so they should know which trains are typically busier than others but they are unlikely to release the information.

Some operators do divulge 'business' of trains in the form of graphical displays which may show number of coaches and/or likelihood of getting a seat. I believe GTR did or does do this but only at peak times and of course without any figures.

 

[matt_world2004]

Hex is quite empty too whenever I have seen it come into paddington . The heathrow connect between Hayes and Heathrow pretty much has less passengers than carriages I am really suprised TfL in the current climate believed that 10tph serving heathrow would be an appropriate use of capacity. 6 crossrail 4 hex. Given the demand is currently not there. A 2tph crossrail service and an 4tph hex service would have still been a service enhancement over the current offering.

 

[bramling]

Hex is quite empty too whenever I have seen it come into paddington . The heathrow connect between Hayes and Heathrow pretty much has less passengers than carriages I am really suprised TfL in the current climate believed that 10tph serving heathrow would be an appropriate use of capacity. 6 crossrail 4 hex. Given the demand is currently not there. A 2tph crossrail service and an 4tph hex service would have still been a service enhancement over the current offering.

Yet the Piccadilly Line is often heavily overcrowded, which must be a curse for people boarding trains into London at stations further in like the Hounslows etc. Cross rail would be well used to Heathrow if the pricing and marketing is right, IMO.

 

[Failed Unit]

Hex is quite empty too whenever I have seen it come into paddington . The heathrow connect between Hayes and Heathrow pretty much has less passengers than carriages I am really suprised TfL in the current climate believed that 10tph serving heathrow would be an appropriate use of capacity. 6 crossrail 4 hex. Given the demand is currently not there. A 2tph crossrail service and an 4tph hex service would have still been a service enhancement over the current offering.

I suspect that HEX will be empty when crossrail opens. It goes to where people want directly. Even more with a single change. Shenfield - Heathrow my us circle line now. They won’t post cross-rail.

Same with Gatwick express.
2 problems. It is expensive so a lot of people avoid the express branded services.
With Thameslink back in the core that gives more destinations. Remember gatwick express branded trains lost the right to use the fastest trains to London. Thameslink could do it in 29. Lots of tube connections on Thameslink.

If they removed the premium I am sure Gatwick express branded trains would be used. Even now I use Thameslink rather than change onto tube and Gatwick express as per planners.

To answer yorkie. GTR - great northern still publish train loading data to assist getting a seat.

 

[332 > 444]

Hex is quite empty too whenever I have seen it come into paddington . The heathrow connect between Hayes and Heathrow pretty much has less passengers than carriages I am really suprised TfL in the current climate believed that 10tph serving heathrow would be an appropriate use of capacity. 6 crossrail 4 hex. Given the demand is currently not there. A 2tph crossrail service and an 4tph hex service would have still been a service enhancement over the current offering.

I used to work on them and I can tell you first hand that they are anything but empty. These days both sections of the train could leave Paddington full. Morning peaks, and Sunday afternoons till close are quite heavily loaded. Out of the three airport express services, this is by far the busiest, I once remember getting a StanEx from Tottenham Hale at 15:37 on a Friday and it was just a 4 car AND a trolley was able to cart it's way through, the was never happen on a hex, we could barely make it through the train sometimes!

I agree with the others though, the GatEx is not busy as most people get the Southern and Thameslink, I get the latter as I just change at Farringdon and my priv oyster made it even cheaper, now I use it for free

 

[Failed Unit]

I used to work on them and I can tell you first hand that they are anything but empty. These days both sections of the train could leave Paddington full. Morning peaks, and Sunday afternoons till close are quite heavily loaded. Out of the three airport express services, this is by far the busiest, I once remember getting a StanEx from Tottenham Hale at 15:37 on a Friday and it was just a 4 car AND a trolley was able to cart it's way through, the was never happen on a hex, we could barely make it through the train sometimes!

I agree with the others though, the GatEx is not busy as most people get the Southern and Thameslink, I get the latter as I just change at Farringdon and my priv oyster made it even cheaper, now I use it for free

That is one of the things I hate about HEX to be honest. The extremely high fare (isnt it the highest pence per mile in Europe) and still needed to stand. Cross rail can’t arrive soon enough.

 

[hwl]

hwl - I think this is what you meant to say...

... with apologies if that seems like pedantry

Technically they at DfT's instigation culled the Brighton fasts that ran 2 minutes after the GatEx Services (but called at Clapham Jn and East Croydon and were very useful for those in South London wanting a quick journey to Gatwick Airport) and extended the GatEx services (not calling at Clapham Jn or East Croydon) to Brighton to maintain the fast service level to Brighton. Most people going to Gatwick don't want to go to Victoria, until they rebuild East Croydon and stop GatExs there they will still cart fresh air around.

 

[Kite159]

I suspect that HEX will be empty when crossrail opens. It goes to where people want directly. Even more with a single change. Shenfield - Heathrow my us circle line now. They won’t post cross-rail.

Same with Gatwick express.
2 problems. It is expensive so a lot of people avoid the express branded services.
With Thameslink back in the core that gives more destinations. Remember gatwick express branded trains lost the right to use the fastest trains to London. Thameslink could do it in 29. Lots of tube connections on Thameslink.

If they removed the premium I am sure Gatwick express branded trains would be used. Even now I use Thameslink rather than change onto tube and Gatwick express as per planners.

To answer yorkie. GTR - great northern still publish train loading data to assist getting a seat.

I suspect HEX will loss some custom, but for those willing to pay the premium of being able to board a train at Paddington upto 15 minutes before departure which is non-stop to the airport, over having to fight it out with commuters at Paddington Low Level, waiting for a Crossrail service to roll in which heads to Heathrow, fighting to board said train which will be full of commuters for Ealing with short dwell times, for a slower journey.

I know if I was paying a couple grand for a holiday I would pay the extra for HEX, at least they have luggage racks and you stand a good chance of getting a seat.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect HEX will loss some custom, but for those willing to pay the premium of being able to board a train at Paddington upto 15 minutes before departure which is non-stop to the airport, over having to fight it out with commuters at Paddington Low Level, waiting for a Crossrail service to roll in which heads to Heathrow, fighting to board said train which will be full of commuters for Ealing with short dwell times, for a slower journey.

I know if I was paying a couple grand for a holiday I would pay the extra for HEX, at least they have luggage racks and you stand a good chance of getting a seat.

But many will join the scrum at Liverpool St, Farringdon etc. They currently need to get the tube. Hence why i will never use HEX again. No more tube, no more overpriced HEX.

At least hex is a quality train. The 387s seating layouts are vastly inferior to the 377s.

 

[nw1]

This has come up before but to my mind the solution would be to keep the GatEx, remove the premium and stop all of them at Clapham Junction. That way, they can separate the Gatwick and the South Coast passengers more effectively. Clapham of course would be very useful for anyone coming from SWR routes.

The premium service with no Clapham stop is a wasted path, while, on the other hand, the normal-fare services going further than Gatwick are overcrowded. There seems to be a limit on the number of trains which can call at Clapham per hour; in that case, perhaps they could consider making the four lightest-loaded non-Gatwick-terminating services (which I'd imagine would be the East Grinsteads, the Reigate and the Tonbridge) skip Clapham instead?

And with the Brightons, simplify it two two fasts which are not also Gatwick services, e.g. one Victoria-Clapham-East Croydon-Brighton and the other with the additional Horley stop.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to discuss the similar matter of the Heathrow Express, you may wish to contribute to:
Is Heathrow Express a good use of resources?

The same issues regarding capacity aren't quite applicable to AGA's Stansted Express, but if anyone is interested in the value for money aspect, threads of interest include Stansted Express ticket questionand AGA's Stansted Express pricing.

I do ask that this thread remains dedicated to matters directly relating to GTR's Gatwick Express though from this point onwards please. Thanks in advance.

 

[Kite159]

This has come up before but to my mind the solution would be to keep the GatEx, remove the premium and stop all of them at Clapham Junction. That way, they can separate the Gatwick and the South Coast passengers more effectively. Clapham of course would be very useful for anyone coming from SWR routes.

The premium service with no Clapham stop is a wasted path, while, on the other hand, the normal-fare services going further than Gatwick are overcrowded. There seems to be a limit on the number of trains which can call at Clapham per hour; in that case, perhaps they could consider making the four lightest-loaded non-Gatwick-terminating services (which I'd imagine would be the East Grinsteads, the Reigate and the Tonbridge) skip Clapham instead?

And with the Brightons, simplify it two two fasts which are not also Gatwick services, e.g. one Victoria-Clapham-East Croydon-Brighton and the other with the additional Horley stop.

Agreed, I've lost count how many times I've been at East Croydon when a Gatwick Express passes carrying fresh air followed by a regular Southern service full of luggage which stays on until Victoria.

 

[Minstral25]

This has come up before but to my mind the solution would be to keep the GatEx, remove the premium and stop all of them at Clapham Junction. That way, they can separate the Gatwick and the South Coast passengers more effectively. Clapham of course would be very useful for anyone coming from SWR routes.

The premium service with no Clapham stop is a wasted path, while, on the other hand, the normal-fare services going further than Gatwick are overcrowded. There seems to be a limit on the number of trains which can call at Clapham per hour; in that case, perhaps they could consider making the four lightest-loaded non-Gatwick-terminating services (which I'd imagine would be the East Grinsteads, the Reigate and the Tonbridge) skip Clapham instead?

And with the Brightons, simplify it two two fasts which are not also Gatwick services, e.g. one Victoria-Clapham-East Croydon-Brighton and the other with the additional Horley stop.

You'll wreck many journeys from Clapham if you remove stops on East Grinstead's & Reigate's - these are heavily used from Clapham

I do agree that the Gatwick Express services should have premium removed and call at Clapham to use line more effectively. I'd also suggest they still skip East Croydon but pick up calls south of Gatwick to replace the Southern fasts, which will enable them to call via Redhill then just Haywards Heath to create better and more much needed journeys

 

[infobleep]

You'll wreck many journeys from Clapham if you remove stops on East Grinstead's & Reigate's - these are heavily used from Clapham

I do agree that the Gatwick Express services should have premium removed and call at Clapham to use line more effectively. I'd also suggest they still skip East Croydon but pick up calls south of Gatwick to replace the Southern fasts, which will enable them to call via Redhill then just Haywards Heath to create better and more much needed journeys

I doubt they would run a fast service that went via Redhill but I would be happy with that.

 

[Adrian Render]

Do the DfT's consultation documents before the franchise award have anything to say? I wonder if they justified the dedicated service based on its passenger numbers?

No they don't. Just finished looking at them!

 

[zoneking]

I was going to start a new thread but this seems an apt place. Should I write and complain to Southern/GTR? On Saturday 7 April, I was making a journey from East Croydon (ECR) to Clapham Junction (CLJ). There are never enough fast trains from ECR to CLJ most of the time. There were no great delays. I caught the 10.24 (corrected, not 10.34) from platform 1, which was about 6 minutes late. It was 12 cars long and completely packed. There were families with children all standing. Many people with luggage. Very hot and uncomfortable. I spoke to the onboard supervisor to ask why it was so packed. He said most people got on at Gatwick. I got off at CLJ and not that many other people did- so obviously most of the people who got on at Gatwick did go through to Victoria. The Gatwick express was 3 minutes behind. Also 12 coaches long, but probably 10% full. I had a good look as it went through platform 12 at CLJ.

So through their pricing/premium policy, they are actively discouraging people from using the Gatwick Express, forcing them to complete very uncomfortable journeys, and also inconveniencing the non-Gatwick passengers.

 

[HowardGWR]

^^^As the same company is running both trains, one would have thought that GTR would be an instigator of a change in this socially-execrable situation, from which I too have suffered. Many of those crammed pax are also taxpayers, subsidising these services.

 

[infobleep]

I was going to start a new thread but this seems an apt place. Should I write and complain to Southern/GTR? On Saturday 7 April, I was making a journey from East Croydon (ECR) to Clapham Junction (CLJ). There are never enough fast trains from ECR to CLJ most of the time. There were no great delays. I caught the 10.34 from platform 1, which was about 6 minutes late. It was 12 cars long and completely packed. There were families with children all standing. Many people with luggage. Very hot and uncomfortable. I spoke to the onboard supervisor to ask why it was so packed. He said most people got on at Gatwick. I got off at CLJ and not that many other people did- so obviously most of the people who got on at Gatwick did go through to Victoria. The Gatwick express was 3 minutes behind. Also 12 coaches long, but probably 10% full. I had a good look as it went through platform 12 at CLJ.

So through their pricing/premium policy, they are actively discouraging people from using the Gatwick Express, forcing them to complete very uncomfortable journeys, and also inconveniencing the non-Gatwick passengers.

I think it's a case of if you don't like the crammed train then find another way that doesn't involve them. GTR/DfT resolving the issue is not an option. If you disagree it doesn't matter. This is the way they want it and thus the way it must be. Only their opinions matter on this.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Why can’t they do what BR did? There was a small premium, ie Gatwick was about 5p less than Three Bridges, but not a stupid one. The clever thing was that at Victoria all the non GX trains we’re not advertised as stopping at Gatwick and at Gatwick the trains were advertised as only going to Clapham Junction, or London Bridge Thus at Victoria the tourists were kept from clogging up the East Croydon trains and at Gatwick they are kept from delaying the ordinary services.

I did write can’t deliberately, because I have a feeling that the need for competition was what stopped the old and sensible situation continuing post privatisation (and possibly sectorisation).

 

[Bald Rick]

I was going to start a new thread but this seems an apt place. Should I write and complain to Southern/GTR? On Saturday 7 April, I was making a journey from East Croydon (ECR) to Clapham Junction (CLJ). There are never enough fast trains from ECR to CLJ most of the time. There were no great delays. I caught the 10.34 from platform 1, which was about 6 minutes late. It was 12 cars long and completely packed. There were families with children all standing. Many people with luggage. Very hot and uncomfortable. I spoke to the onboard supervisor to ask why it was so packed. He said most people got on at Gatwick. I got off at CLJ and not that many other people did- so obviously most of the people who got on at Gatwick did go through to Victoria. The Gatwick express was 3 minutes behind. Also 12 coaches long, but probably 10% full. I had a good look as it went through platform 12 at CLJ.

So through their pricing/premium policy, they are actively discouraging people from using the Gatwick Express, forcing them to complete very uncomfortable journeys, and also inconveniencing the non-Gatwick passengers.

Write to your MP. The current position, which is broadly the same as it has been for more than 20 years,(albeit the same company now runs Southern and Gatwick Express), is entirely in the gift of
Government. The Department for Transport requires GTR to provide different brands, non stopping at
Clapham and East Croydon, and differential fares.

As an aside, something not right about your times. The 1034 from East Croydon to Victoria was 2 minutes late (not 6), and started at Reigate, so could have neither called at Gatwick nor have been 12 coaches.

It is possible you caught the 1024, which departed East Croydon at 1031 (7 late). This had come all the way from Bognor Regis, and would have picked up a great deal of passengers from south of Gatwick. No doubt plenty got on at Gatwick, but it would have been by no means the majority.