Passenger information: the railway needs to catch up

[infobleep]

Some stations take a train off the boards 1 or 2 minutes before departure to stop last minute runners, but it doesn't really work at some locations. In some cases it can make things worse as someone holds the doors while shouting to anyone to tell them where it is going.

The message is often played as passengers are still getting off the train and the passengers wishing to board are still unable to do so, due to others getting off.

If the message was taken literally, the passengers should stop disembarking and none of the passengers wishing to embark should. Would be a lot of over carries.

 

[infobleep]

So your train gets shown with a delay of 30 minutes so you then go to Starbucks on the High Street, during that time your train makes up 10 (by any means available to it) and as the new driver is booked to pass on that train they are already in the new cab as the train rolls in and so is ready to depart 22 minutes after the booked departure time, so the train then departs with a delay of 23 minutes, you then return 29 minutes after the booked departure to find the train now well on the return journey?

Paul

Well the new notification update to the National Rail Enquiries App does something similar.

If your train to or from work is late, it will give you its expected arrival time and platform. However it will still say its on time, even though it's not.

If it makes up time, you might not know because you were told it was on time when it wasn't.

 

[EM2]

Because getting a text or an email isn't as annoying as hearing announcements (often broken or over a bad PA). One you can opt into and the other you can't.

But we're not just talking about texts and emails. We're discussing departure boards and platform screens too.
And even texts and emails can get lost in the morass of info that gets shoved at you every day. Numerous times an email with useful information has slipped by me simply because of the avalanche of new messages.

 

[SPADTrap]

If you look at the likes of IBM Waton or Amazon Web Services, the technology is there waiting to be deployed, I recently witnessed a demostration of AI carrying out open heart surgery and they have also trained AI as a lawyer who has already one court cases in the USA.earning to sell a ticket from Euston to Birmingham is one of the easiest things to do.

Who trains the AI when the AI have all the jobs thus stopping people training in law/surgery in the first place, as there are no jobs?

 

[farleigh]

Who trains the AI when the AI have all the jobs thus stopping people training in law/surgery in the first place, as there are no jobs?

The AI

 

[CentralTrainer]

For things like toilets out of order or anything useful to know in advance, if the train manager on such a service is aware of this, would it be possible for that train manager to send a message to stations en-route, and then a loudspeaker announcement made to passengers at those stations?

"The train arriving on Platform 4 has no water in Coaches B,C and D. The service standing at Platform 6B has a toilet overflowing in Coach F. The 1027 to Crewe, arriving at Platform 12 has slightly dimmer lights in the front two carriages. The Trolley Service available on the 1043 to Stafford is being manned by Declan who is still hungover from last night due to his girlfriend leaving him - so you might not get what you ask for.

Oh, and all services to Stoke on Trent have been cancelled due to a line side fire. But back to the important things - please be aware that if you're sat in a window seat on the delayed 1016 to Hereford, you might be a bit colder than those in aisle seats due to the configuration of the air con systems."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dave1987]

Although not on the railway, I am currently working on a project that will totally replace customer facing staff with AI.

I foresee a time in the not too distant future where there are no human staffed booking offices at all (maybe with next 10 years)

If you look at the likes of IBM Waton or Amazon Web Services, the technology is there waiting to be deployed, I recently witnessed a demostration of AI carrying out open heart surgery and they have also trained AI as a lawyer who has already one court cases in the USA.

With all the advancement in Artifical Inetlligence, programming machine learning to sell a ticket from Euston to Birmingham is one of the easiest things to do.

Once you have automated half the population out of job no one will have any money to use the services you have designed AI for therefore you will crash the economy.

 

[ComUtoR]

So because one subset of passengers wouldn't benefit we shouldn't bother? Because from the tone of yours posts that's what it sounds like!

Its a simple question and one that needs to be addressed. Especially with the OP's analogy posted. Contacting passengers works well on the airlines because they have provided contact details and there is ample time to contact passengers as flights are generally prepared for service.

With the sheer volume of people who are very much turn up and travel passengers there is no way to contact them directly. Should a passenger who pays for a walk up fare supply their contact details ?

You also need to deal with how faults etc are dealt with locally. If I found a toilet was locked out of use I wouldn't report it. If I locked one out then its debatable when I would report it. I know I wouldn't report it instantly that's for sure. Therefore you would still have a situation where there is a toilet locked out and passengers turn up with a faulty unit. How would you deal with that ?

How also would you then know which passengers are on that unit or would be on that unit. Passengers do not declare which services they choose to board. Advance tickets have the benefit of knowing which passengers are potentially on which unit.

I could see an option where faults are put into a globally accessible system so passengers can check in advance based on if their own decision to check but you still need that information fed into it by someone and that system needs to also know which units are on which services.

Or I guess we could just say "Nah why bother it might be a bit hard and not everyone will benefit anyway"?

Everything comes at a price and needs to be evaluated in terms of how many people will benefit. Should an entire system be created purely to benefit small minority of people but then increase the ticket price of everyone ?

There is a constant demand to reduce ticket prices and reduce the insane cost of the railways. All these demands for Smart ticketing, tables, wifi, and improved PIS, CIS and god knows what else the passengers are demanding is driving the costs higher and higher. Ask yourself, Is this something you would pay for ? Would you pay a subscription or a additional premium on your ticket for this service ? Why should the cost be added to everyone just for the sake of a few people ?

 

[Dave1987]

I despise giving my details to any company that doesn't really need it as you get spammed like crazy with marketing, and that is before they sell your details on. A number of people have been scammed because they gave out their details freely and scammers could gain enough information about them to dupe them. If you download an application to your smart phone from a company and do not disable location services that company can track exactly where you are and all your regularly visited places.

 

[welshpax]

Who trains the AI when the AI have all the jobs thus stopping people training in law/surgery in the first place, as there are no jobs?

The AI is self learning so after it has been populated with basic data it will learn itself going forward based on trends and algorithms.

We are at a point now where AI can actually train other AI and humans are out of the link.

In regards to what happens when there are no jobs, then we look at Universal Basic Income where you are paid a salary that covers all your needs by the government.

Where I am based at the moment we will be having self driving taxis within the next few years, so then we will not need taxi drivers, but, look at the bigger picture, self driving means less accidents so we won't need as many police or emergency services.

Automation is coming whether we like it or not, I was at a presentation recently where the speaker confidently stated that within 30 years 90% of jobs will be automated.

 

[welshpax]

You do not need the customers contact details to be able to contact them, technology already available today can target smart phones in a pretty localised area and push notifications through to them. All it takes is a localised transmission beacon and hey presto!

I am working on a project at the moment that will send an SMS message to every visitor who enters our site using the GPS and wifi signal, we no longer need their contact details. It will scare you the amount of data that can be collected from you.

 

[ComUtoR]

It will scare you the amount of data that can be collected from you.

It scares a lot of people.

 

[Dave1987]

It scares a lot of people.

Indeed I turn location services off on my phone for all applications that I don't want to have my location. In the "future" is very very scary. More and more people becoming the victims of identity fraud.

 

[EM2]

You do not need the customers contact details to be able to contact them, technology already available today can target smart phones in a pretty localised area and push notifications through to them. All it takes is a localised transmission beacon and hey presto!

I am working on a project at the moment that will send an SMS message to every visitor who enters our site using the GPS and wifi signal, we no longer need their contact details. It will scare you the amount of data that can be collected from you.

So you need to have Bluetooth, mobile data, GPS or WiFi on all the time?
No thanks.

 

[Llanigraham]

In regards to what happens when there are no jobs, then we look at Universal Basic Income where you are paid a salary that covers all your needs by the government.

Where I am based at the moment we will be having self driving taxis within the next few years, so then we will not need taxi drivers, but, look at the bigger picture, self driving means less accidents so we won't need as many police or emergency services.

Automation is coming whether we like it or not, I was at a presentation recently where the speaker confidently stated that within 30 years 90% of jobs will be automated.

And where does the money come from to pay this "Universal Basic Income"? If no one is working then no one is paying taxes, therefore a large part of the Government's income has been removed.

You are suggesting what looks like a totalitarian socialist state. I suggest that Cloud Cuckoo Land beckons!

 

[Llanigraham]

You do not need the customers contact details to be able to contact them, technology already available today can target smart phones in a pretty localised area and push notifications through to them. All it takes is a localised transmission beacon and hey presto!

I am working on a project at the moment that will send an SMS message to every visitor who enters our site using the GPS and wifi signal, we no longer need their contact details. It will scare you the amount of data that can be collected from you.

More presumption!
Not everyone has a smart phone.
Not everywhere has 4G phone coverage.
Not everyone's phone has GPS.

In fact, not everyone has a phone!

And what happens when the system doesn't work?

 

[SamYeager]

You also need to deal with how faults etc are dealt with locally. If I found a toilet was locked out of use I wouldn't report it. If I locked one out then its debatable when I would report it. I know I wouldn't report it instantly that's for sure.

Ok, when are you likely to report it? At the end of your duty on that train, when the train reaches its destination or some other point? How do you report it? By use of a form, filling in a fault log or some other method?

Whilst the details may differ from TOC to TOC do you think they're likely to be similar?

 

[ComUtoR]

Ok, when are you likely to report it?

It all depends on what I'm doing. If I find it on discovery then I pretty much never report it. If I am the one who locked it out then it will depend on the reason why and when I locked it out. If it's on PB and I'm nights then I'd report it on my break but it will be reported before it enters service. We have a new fault app (literally a few weeks old) so I'd use that.

At the end of your duty on that train,

Nope, because I' switch trains quite often. My time between units can be very limited and well, its a toilet and has no impact on the service. I'd report it by the end of the day at the least. By then, the unit will have been running about all day.

when the train reaches its destination or some other point? How do you report it? By use of a form, filling in a fault log or some other method?

We have a fault reporting app. It's basically an email.

Whilst the details may differ from TOC to TOC do you think they're likely to be similar?

There won't be a universal way of reporting faults across each TOC. Our roles differ so much.


You have to remember that reporting something isn't always something that's done at the moment. It's also something that isn't specifically tracked throughout the day. Major faults are dealt with differently because they have a direct impact on the service and we are required to report it.

There is also the consideration that the systems we use do not interact well or even at all. Faults get logged with engineering. The guys who look after the service don't access that data. They access Drivers diagrams mostly.

We also have to remember that because I am Metro and DOO, I look after my unit. Some Drivers don't do much other than drive. I don't have the luxury of having my unit cleaned out and made ready for service each time I change ends. I get 4-8 minutes and that's it. Unless my unit develops a fault that stops it then I could run about all day never seeing the inside of a train.

We are talking about needing a system that is universally accessible by all departments, tracks every unit and service they run, including stock movements and changes, and then tracks all the passengers who are on booked on that unit/service and then needs to contact them.

On a metro walk up service where people turn up a few minutes before their train its not practical or possible.

Hence why any new system needs to be something passengers could access that tracks unit/service. Even then it still isn't going to change much. Maybe on the long haul services but Metro... Nah.

 

[welshpax]

More presumption!
Not everyone has a smart phone.
Not everywhere has 4G phone coverage.
Not everyone's phone has GPS.

In fact, not everyone has a phone!

And what happens when the system doesn't work?

According to the Deloitte Mobile consumer report in 2016, smartphones have 81% penetration in the mobile market and this is will increase by between 2% and 4% in 2017.

You don't need 4G coverage as there are localised beacons installed that have push send capabilities, they just need to cover the local areas such as a beacon on each until or each station.

Trust me, this is coming, even the older generations are now getting connected to smartphones more than ever before.

If you want to take a look at the current market for smartphone I suggest you take a look at the report - https://www.deloitte.co.uk/mobileuk/ I think you will be surprised at how many people do actually own some kind of connected device.

This is an argument I hear every day from people, the technology is there, but currently the will is not.

 

[welshpax]

And where does the money come from to pay this "Universal Basic Income"? If no one is working then no one is paying taxes, therefore a large part of the Government's income has been removed.

You are suggesting what looks like a totalitarian socialist state. I suggest that Cloud Cuckoo Land beckons!

It's ok, i get this all the time, UBI does get this reaction, it scares people and quite rightly so. It is far from a totalitarian state, but, imagine you didn't have to go to work each day, but were given an income so you could then spend your time doing good in the world.

It may seem bizarre now, but, most disruptive things are, imagine the reaction you would have had in the 1700's if you told them in 100 years people would be moving about on machines that could move at great speeds powered by a great force called steam. You would have had the same reaction as we are having now.

Some people get paid to look at what's going to happen in the near future, my job is to look at what is going to happen in the next 30-50 years and try and make that a reality

 

[Llanigraham]

According to the Deloitte Mobile consumer report in 2016, smartphones have 81% penetration in the mobile market and this is will increase by between 2% and 4% in 2017.

You don't need 4G coverage as there are localised beacons installed that have push send capabilities, they just need to cover the local areas such as a beacon on each until or each station.

Trust me, this is coming, even the older generations are now getting connected to smartphones more than ever before.

If you want to take a look at the current market for smartphone I suggest you take a look at the report - https://www.deloitte.co.uk/mobileuk/ I think you will be surprised at how many people do actually own some kind of connected device.

This is an argument I hear every day from people, the technology is there, but currently the will is not.

Still only gives 85%.

Who pays for all these beacons?
What happens in rural areas?

I am off the older generation!

I don't own a smartphone, nor does my wife, nor do lots of our friends, perhaps because we live in a rural area. You seem very urban-centric!

 

[Llanigraham]

It's ok, i get this all the time, UBI does get this reaction, it scares people and quite rightly so. It is far from a totalitarian state, but, imagine you didn't have to go to work each day, but were given an income so you could then spend your time doing good in the world.

It may seem bizarre now, but, most disruptive things are, imagine the reaction you would have had in the 1700's if you told them in 100 years people would be moving about on machines that could move at great speeds powered by a great force called steam. You would have had the same reaction as we are having now.

Some people get paid to look at what's going to happen in the near future, my job is to look at what is going to happen in the next 30-50 years and try and make that a reality

And you haven't answered the question; where does the Government get the money to pay this Universal Benefit if no one is working and paying taxes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you need to have Bluetooth, mobile data, GPS or WiFi on all the time?

No thanks.

Then don't take advantage of these new services. It's not compulsory.

 

[Llanigraham]

Then don't take advantage of these new services. It's not compulsory.

But the way at least one person on here is talking that will be the only way, as there will be no staff at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the way at least one person on here is talking that will be the only way, as there will be no staff at all.

Reading a departure board requires neither smartphone nor staff.

 

[welshpax]

And you haven't answered the question; where does the Government get the money to pay this Universal Benefit if no one is working and paying taxes?

It is a long discussion, can I suggest you take a look at the articles below and it will give you a better idea.

https://futurism.com/images/universal-basic-income-answer-automation/

https://qz.com/1034358/ubi-and-automation-could-be-the-symbiotic-solution-for-displaced-workers/

https://www.geek.com/tech-science-3/elon-musk-automation-will-force-universal-basic-income-1701217/

http://fortune.com/2017/05/24/automation-job-loss-universal-income/

http://www.sfchronicle.com/aboutsfg...-basic-income-is-gaining-support-11290211.php

When yu have the big tech giants like Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerburg and Elon Musk talking about it, then it is time to sit up and take notice.

MODS - Really sorry for taking this discussion off topic a little, please feel free to remove if you feel it is not approprate

 

[welshpax]

Still only gives 85%.

Who pays for all these beacons?
What happens in rural areas?

I am off the older generation!

I don't own a smartphone, nor does my wife, nor do lots of our friends, perhaps because we live in a rural area. You seem very urban-centric!

It makes no difference if it is a rural area or not, the beacons are only concerned with the locality of the station, it does not need to have a link to the current mobile network. In regards to who pays for it, well that will come from the reduction in staff numbers, in fact there will possibily be a positive return on investment.

I totally get your point about the older generation not having access to a smart phone, and, not willing to be so blunt, but the next generation who reach a mature age will have access as they have come through the technology revolution.

I am not talking about this happening today or tomorrow, but maybe within 10 years when a lot of retired folk who are in their mid 50's now are fully up to speed with technology.

 

[Dave1987]

It makes no difference if it is a rural area or not, the beacons are only concerned with the locality of the station, it does not need to have a link to the current mobile network. In regards to who pays for it, well that will come from the reduction in staff numbers, in fact there will possibily be a positive return on investment.

I totally get your point about the older generation not having access to a smart phone, and, not willing to be so blunt, but the next generation who reach a mature age will have access as they have come through the technology revolution.

I am not talking about this happening today or tomorrow, but maybe within 10 years when a lot of retired folk who are in their mid 50's now are fully up to speed with technology.

So you walk past a shop or walk into a station or walk into a department store and you device will start pestering you with constant alerts from companies. No thanks! You know it will be abused!

You seem to have a very rose tinted view of the world. This is a cut throat dog eat dog world where some are quite happy to see the demise of others for their own gain! You only have to read some of the posts on this very forum with some positively gleeful at the prospect of others losing their jobs and livelihoods. UBI is pie in the sky fantasy stuff. I can think of a few current right wing politicians that would probably have nightmares over someone being entitled to a wage without working for it. And all the stuff you talk about now will almost certainly be abused just like companies sell any data they currently have on you to others. If I started getting unsolicited alerts on my device that I didn't ask for I would turn it all off so you couldn't send it to me!

 

[EM2]

UBI is pie in the sky fantasy stuff.

And yet it's being trialled in Finland right now - http://www.kela.fi/web/en/basic-income-experiment-2017-2018

Objectives and implementation of the Basic Income Experiment

Objectives of the Basic Income Experiment
The basic income is a form of social security in which all citizens receive a regular, unconditional sum of money towards their expenses. It is intended to reduce the amount of work involved in seeking financial assistance and to free up time and resources for other activities such as working or seeking employment.

Finland will conduct an experiment testing a basic income in 2017-2018. The experiment will be implemented by Kela, the Social Insurance Institution of Finland.

The basic income experiment seeks answers to the following questions:

• How could the social security system be redesigned to address the changing nature of work?
• Can the social security system be reshaped in a way that promotes active participation and gives people a stronger incentive to work?
• Can bureaucracy be reduced and the complicated benefits system simplified?

Implementation of the basic income experiment
Because of the nature of the experiment, Finnish citizens will not all be paid a basic income. The study population will consist of 2,000 persons selected at random in December 2016.

They will be paid a basic income for a period of two years (1 January 2017 - 31 December 2018). Set at €560 per month, the basic income is paid unconditionally and without means testing. Recipients get it automatically once a month.

Studying the impact of the experiment
A follow-up study will be conducted about the basic income experiment in which the study population is compared with a control group. The control group comprises all those who are not selected into the study population. They will not be paid a basic income.

The purpose of the study is to examine the impact of the basic income. One of the topics studied is whether there are differences in employment rates between those receiving and those not receiving a basic income.

 

[welshpax]

So you walk past a shop or walk into a station or walk into a department store and you device will start pestering you with constant alerts from companies. No thanks! You know it will be abused!

You seem to have a very rose tinted view of the world. This is a cut throat dog eat dog world where some are quite happy to see the demise of others for their own gain! You only have to read some of the posts on this very forum with some positively gleeful at the prospect of others losing their jobs and livelihoods. UBI is pie in the sky fantasy stuff. I can think of a few current right wing politicians that would probably have nightmares over someone being entitled to a wage without working for it. And all the stuff you talk about now will almost certainly be abused just like companies sell any data they currently have on you to others. If I started getting unsolicited alerts on my device that I didn't ask for I would turn it all off so you couldn't send it to me!

It all comes down to changing peoples behaviours and perceptions of the world. I recently had a conversation with someone about self driving taxis, research points to the fact that people will be weary to to use them, so how do we over come that? Well you incentivise people to use them by making them 50% cheaper than a taxi driven by humans. The same will apply in other areas....an example being your mobile phone, your phone company can track your movements by the way it registers on the network as you move from cell to cell, they could in theory use that data to know that you pass a Mcdonalds every day on the way to work and push offers to your phone when you walk past.

I certainly don't have a rose tinted view on the world, in fact my job is to be as sceptable as possible regarding new technology and to accept failure, however, if people would only take a look around them and see what has already been automated they would be surprised, from the self service tills at the supermarket through to banking, when you click on that chat box on a website to speak to a customer service agent, chances are that is AI answering your questions.

Data is more valuable than gold and there is a huge amount generated, that nectar or clubcard card in your pocket is logging everything you are buying, looking at amazon or ebay for something? then this is generating data. Someday soon, whether we like it or not will be used to service or sell to us in someway.

Anyway, this is going way off topic, maybe we should start a new thread in another part of the forum so I can share some of the things that are happening in the world outside of railways.

I promise to stop posting in this thread now as I dont want to hijack it