Passenger Counting Data

[ThatBloke]

The Class 22x fleet during its refurbishment is having passenger counting added, at doorways and at gangways between the vehicles.
How is this data used?
Is it used for short term decision making, if so what type of decisions?
Or
Is it more about understanding passenger loading from a strategic standpoint such as future timetable changes or specifying additional stock?

What are other TOCs doing with this data?

 

[Carntyne]

Pretty much both. It helps carriage allocation (or should) on a short-term basis and will also show trends that influence future rolling stock investment.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Pretty much both. It helps carriage allocation (or should) on a short-term basis and will also show trends that influence future rolling stock investment.

Short term carriage allocation isn't really something that's possible these days as most trains a fixed length, I suppose arguably its where 10 car trains are allocated but I'm not even sure passenger counting is needed for that.

It's long-term rolling stock investment it drives, it adds statistics to what's known by ticket sales anyway

 

[father_jack]

The Class 22x fleet during its refurbishment is having passenger counting added, at doorways and at gangways between the vehicles.
How is this data used?
Is it used for short term decision making, if so what type of decisions?
Or
Is it more about understanding passenger loading from a strategic standpoint such as future timetable changes or specifying additional stock?

What are other TOCs doing with this data?

Some info here. https://journeo.com/resources/product/rail/
Possibly worthy of a small share investment even.

 

[py_megapixel]

I have no inside knowledge, but is it possibly used as part of working out where to target ticket inspections?
These days most tickets are sold in conjunction with a travel itinerary, so cross-referencing sales data with passenger counts could give an idea of which services are likely to have lots of passengers travelling without valid tickets.

Passenger counts are themselves nothing new on XC, I've certainly seen staff walking through counting before, but of course new equipment can automate this task and roll it out to every service.

 

[dk1]

We did lots of testing with auto passenger counting (amongst many other things) when commissioning and years of testing with the GA Stadler fleet but really not sure how or if it’s used apart from for the internal displays to show how busy each carriage is during its journey.

 

[Lewisham2221]

If TOCs are going to start making decisions based on automatic counting, we're all doomed. I've worked many a busy train where the system reckons there's only a handful of people onboard, and conversely worked trains with single-figure passenger numbers which the system reckons are 50+ passengers

 

[ThatBloke]

Thankyou all for your feedback.

 

[stuving]

TOCs are required to fit and use passenger counting equipment by their National Rail Contracts. That's true of the ones I've read, and I think of all of them, though the details of how completely the fleet has to be fitted will vary. The previous franchise agreements also had such requirements, though the further back in time the less of this was demanded.

Here, as an example, is the relevant section from chapter 4.1 of SWR's NRC. There are other sections about passenger counts and how they are used, but this is the bit about the technology.

17. Technology for Obtaining the Information referred to in paragraph 15.2
17.1 The technology to be used for the purpose of paragraph 15.2 shall be infrared sensors fitted at external side doors.
17.2 The technology to be used for the purposes of paragraph 15.2 shall be fitted to:

​

(a) in the case of any brand new rolling stock which is admitted to the Train Fleet, one hundred per cent (100%) of it from the date that such rolling stock is properly admitted; and​

(b) in the case of all other rolling stock (except for rolling stock used in connection with the Island Line Services), by 31 March 2022, to every vehicle comprised within no less than thirty-five per cent (35%) of such rolling stock units included in the Train Fleet from time to time in aggregate.​

17.3 Without limiting the Secretary of State’s rights under paragraph 15.1 of this Chapter 4.1, the technology specified in paragraph 17.1 above shall be used to provide counts in respect of, in any period of not less than twelve (12) weeks, at least two (2) of each of the Timetabled Services, and each count shall be carried out on each rolling stock unit comprising a particular train. The Operator may only use a method of extrapolation and use extrapolated data to provide a reliable estimate of a full train’s count with the Secretary of State’s prior written approval of the use of extrapolated data and the method of extrapolation (such approval not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed). The Operator shall comply with its obligation under this paragraph 17 from the date(s) such rolling stock is incorporated into the Train Fleet.

17.4 The Parties acknowledge that the information supplied under paragraph 15.1 above, and any product of it created by the RPC Database or the Preliminary Database (as appropriate), may constitute Confidential Information to which Chapter 9.6 (Confidentiality and Data Protection) applies.

 

[WirralLine]

If TOCs are going to start making decisions based on automatic counting, we're all doomed. I've worked many a busy train where the system reckons there's only a handful of people onboard, and conversely worked trains with single-figure passenger numbers which the system reckons are 50+ passengers

Agreed. The CAF 197s have it. A few times per year conductors have to do manual passenger counts and submit numbers after each stop for a full 2 weeks. If you compare the passenger numbers from my clicker/counter to the numbers the unit has counted its usually miles above or below reality. Ive had 44 passengers onboard an ECS move before according to the unit. (In reality 0 of course!)

 

[6Gman]

Passenger counts are themselves nothing new on XC, I've certainly seen staff walking through counting before, but of course new equipment can automate this task and roll it out to every service.

Nothing new, full stop.

In the late 1970s there was a staff publication listing where counts were to be taken in the following (from memory, so details hazy - and train details fictional) format:

1E52 0840 Plymouth-Newcastle
On departure from Exeter, Bristol, Birmingham, York

The details were recorded on a specific form, handed in at the end of the shift then posted (by internal mail) to regional offices.

They were then transferred onto large cards (one for each service) which covered the whole timetable period and heavy/light loadings could be identified. Which was my first job on the railway.

And - having spotted consistent overloading every Friday on one service - I was able as a temporary starting grade Clerk to arrange for said train to be strengthened by an additional vehicle. Today it would probably involve TOC, ROSCO, DfT and Royal Assent!

 

[Mattplans]

And - having spotted consistent overloading every Friday on one service - I was able as a temporary starting grade Clerk to arrange for said train to be strengthened by an additional vehicle. Today it would probably involve TOC, ROSCO, DfT and Royal Assent!

Very interesting and funny story!

It might also interest some that this website allows you to view an average of passenger loadings https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/loadings/gbr/





Hint: the overnight Thameslink departures via London Blackfriars are very popular. Especially 9N04 - 12 car service!

 

[Clarence Yard]

Be careful with those figures - they are modelled, not actuals.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Indeed, the Elizabeth Line passenger loading for one is quite incorrect to real world for Abbey-Wood and Woolwich which are very understated passenger number wise on the data model.

 

[Bigbru]

On the eastern side of the Elizabeth line they are displayed on the platform screens so passengers can move to less full carriages before boarding (if they want to)