Passenger breaks law, then whines when she's punished

[Llanigraham]

The crux of the matter here, as Soil has pointed out many times in the thread is that the lady clearly ignored a Magistrates' Court Summons. A summons is not a party invitation - it's a summons. Fail to attend and you'll be hit with a standard penalty and no discounts based on the evidence presented. If it's a more serious matter you'll find that a warrant is issued and the police come along to bring you to court, most likely after a night in the cells.

Bother to show up and you'll be fined based on your income, given a discount if you plead guilty at the first appearance and be allowed to give your mitigation. You may even want to challenge the charges and go to a trial. All of that is possible if you show up.

Agreed.
All of this is explained in plain English (and Welsh in this case) in all the documents that the lady would have received with the Summons. She has quite obviously ignored this as she did not appear and also obviously did not complete her earnings details.

 

[sheff1]

These cases of someone "late for work" who doesn't buy a ticket before boarding are always a little odd. If it's a regular work journey, why haven't they bought a season ticket, or even bought tickets a few days earlier?

There are various reasons why someone may not buy a season. Some examples:
* Only work 2 or 3 days a week.
* Have a zero hours contract with no guarantee of work on any given day.
* Work is in different locations on different days.
* Get a lift home from work.

Obviously in this specific case the person concerned has not posted so we have no idea what her circumstances are.

 

[LAX54]

Tne of these a day for a month and ATW revenue would go through the roof.

I thought when these things went to Court, the TOC did not get all of the fine ?

This is more about ignoring a H.M. Court Summons than a TOC 'fine'

She ignored it, which is almost seen as a contempt of court, so was hit with the maximum, she only has one person to blame really.

I would have though a bit of research on Google about ignoring a Court Summons would have been high on the agenda !

If I had such a document through the post I would have been s**t scared, not blase about ignoring it !

 

[soil]

I thought when these things went to Court, the TOC did not get all of the fine ?

This is more about ignoring a H.M. Court Summons than a TOC 'fine'

Wasn't the point that the revenue would rise because of passengers being scared into buying a ticket?

I don't think the TOC gets anything beyond the £1.90 and maybe the costs. They don't get the fine. It's financially better to settle out of court, but clearly there's a deterrent effect from people getting hit with £600 bills in the courts.

 

[Puffing Devil]

All the TOC gets from a court appearance is compensation for the unpaid fare and any contribution to their prosecution costs.

The government pockets the rest.

 

[yorkie]

I thought when these things went to Court, the TOC did not get all of the fine ?

They get none of the actual fine. However many cases are settled out of court, and that money will go to the train company.

Hence it is in the interests of both parties that cases are settled out of court, if they can both agree on a settlement amount.

Some train companies, such as Northern, seem very keen to settle, and may even use their own names for such settlements.

 

[BRX]

Er, why on earth would you do that? Surely you'd take 10 seconds out of your day to find out what the actual penalties might be? It doesn't seem like a good excuse to me at all.

Maybe she was foolish to ignore the summons, if that's what happened. I still don't feel the information given in the Sun article is enough to judge the full context of what happened.

In any case it comes back to the question of whether initiating a process that ends up with issuing a court summons at all is proportionate to her "crime". From the facts available it seems to me that it's likely that it wasn't proportionate. Likely enough that I'd wonder what the motivation is for the rather melodramatic thread title which seems to take glee in someone being, potentially, harassed, for what seems a minor error of judgement.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Why do people not take legal documents seriously?

Just to address this question, some people's lives are pretty chaotic - quite possibly of their own making to a greater or lesser extent, but chaotic nonetheless.

This is more about ignoring a H.M. Court Summons than a TOC 'fine'

She ignored it, which is almost seen as a contempt of court, so was hit with the maximum, she only has one person to blame really.

I would have though a bit of research on Google about ignoring a Court Summons would have been high on the agenda !

If I had such a document through the post I would have been s**t scared, not blase about ignoring it !

Perhaps she genuinely didn't realise it was important. But perhaps the envelope never even got opened.

Going back to the chaotic life theme, some people end up in all sorts of debt with demand letters piling up and just cope with it by sticking their head in the sand. The thing with debt is that finance companies send all sorts of ever more colourful correspondence to debtors which suggests that the world is going to end, but it can be a very long path before the courts get involved (if they do at all). I just wonder if the message some people might take from this is to not take these various threats of repercussions at face value, and so do the same for proper legal documents?

The other age old thing is 'putting the bills down the back of the sofa'.
Official letter = bad news of some sort = leave it to one side.

This case demonstrates how important it is not to let such matters escalate, and to deal with the issue as promptly as possible.

Ultimately this is of course the answer, to taking legal documents seriously but also to debt issues and indeed many other some entanglements people get themselves in! Unfortunately a fair number of people stumble from one crisis to the next, never really getting on top of things.

 

[BRX]

Just to address this question, some people's lives are pretty chaotic - quite possibly of their own making to a greater or lesser extent, but chaotic nonetheless.



Perhaps she genuinely didn't realise it was important. But perhaps the envelope never even got opened.

Going back to the chaotic life theme, some people end up in all sorts of debt with demand letters piling up and just cope with it by sticking their head in the sand. The thing with debt is that finance companies send all sorts of ever more colourful correspondence to debtors which suggests that the world is going to end, but it can be a very long path before the courts get involved (if they do at all). I just wonder if the message some people might take from this is to not take these various threats of repercussions at face value, and so do the same for proper legal documents?

I think you're right... indeed I have in the past received various things at least threatening court summonses when there have been outstanding electricity bills and so on (a common situation when you live in rented accommodation) and which frequently were issued as a result of utilities companies messing things up, failing to cancel old accounts and so on. My approach with these often tended to be to roll my eyes, even if it might then prompt me to double check that the thing they were asking for *was* in fact anything to do with me.

I don't find it so hard to imagine that someone might have a similar response to something talking about a £1.90 unpaid rail fare.

 

[daodao]

She was rushing to work when she jumped on an Arriva Trains Wales service without buying a ticket.

I used to live in Cardiff and used Valley Lines regularly from Whitchurch station (I could see the platform from the window of my flat). All the services then were PayTrains, and usually one could buy a ticket from the guard; only occasionally did I need to buy it on arrival in Cardiff.

However, I noted on a recent visit back to Cardiff that all stations are now governed by Penalty Fare rules, and have TVMs, so woe betide anyone who doesn't buy a ticket before boarding. The only time when the passenger might run into problems when not having done anything wrong is if the booking office (for manned stations) is closed, the TVM(s) are not working, one is unable to buy a ticket from the guard, and the staff at the Cardiff central stations (Queen St/General) are not aware that the TVM(s) at the boarding station are out of order and won't accept the passenger's statement to that effect.

 

[Clip]

Maybe she was foolish to ignore the summons, if that's what happened. I still don't feel the information given in the Sun article is enough to judge the full context of what happened.

In any case it comes back to the question of whether initiating a process that ends up with issuing a court summons at all is proportionate to her "crime". From the facts available it seems to me that it's likely that it wasn't proportionate. Likely enough that I'd wonder what the motivation is for the rather melodramatic thread title which seems to take glee in someone being, potentially, harassed, for what seems a minor error of judgement.

Or one could say, from the facts provided, that she may be a serial fare dodger due to her 'expecting' and £80 brush off??

People who know about that or in other areas, a penalty fare, seem quite happy to take the risk to do this, I mean, how else would she have known about any form of £80 settlement from any TOC let alone ATW?

 

[Greenback]

I reckon that there's a chance that the woman in question was happy to risk not buying a ticket and not getitng caught at all, with an £80 fine the worst outcome if by some chance she did get caught.

I suggest that ATW formed the same view, which could have contributed to their decision to prosecute.

I do think that the fines dished out fare evasion are disproportionate, but that's a matter for the justice system to address, just like the fines for driving offences and violence that are too low.

 

[NSEFAN]

I used to live in Cardiff and used Valley Lines regularly from Whitchurch station (I could see the platform from the window of my flat). All the services then were PayTrains, and usually one could buy a ticket from the guard; only occasionally did I need to buy it on arrival in Cardiff.

However, I noted on a recent visit back to Cardiff that all stations are now governed by Penalty Fare rules, and have TVMs, so woe betide anyone who doesn't buy a ticket before boarding. The only time when the passenger might run into problems when not having done anything wrong is if the booking office (for manned stations) is closed, the TVM(s) are not working, one is unable to buy a ticket from the guard, and the staff at the Cardiff central stations (Queen St/General) are not aware that the TVM(s) at the boarding station are out of order and won't accept the passenger's statement to that effect.

The passenger should absolutely not be penalised for the TVM not working. Even if the front-line staff aren't aware of a broken machine, the office processing unpaid fares should have this information and should ask for no more than the correct fare due in that case.

Otherwise, the onus really is on the passenger to buy beforehand. However it's no wonder that passengers are confused when guards will still sell people tickets on the train. The TOC should either stick to its penalty fare rules or not bother with such a scheme.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How often would she get caught, I wonder? If it was £80 (and it does seem that both TOCs and people on here, certainly me[1], think it would be a more appropriate sum for a "Penalty Fare" that included cases of failure to purchase rather than full-on fraud, being roughly the sum charged for civil parking "penalties" which tend to be about evasion of a very similar sum to a local train fare) would the TOC actually lose overall if some people did just pay £80 once every couple of weeks rather than £4 a day?

[1] I object to Penalty Fakes not because they are £80 but because of the structure under which they are implemented, for example with no independent appeals process.

 

[BRX]

Or one could say, from the facts provided, that she may be a serial fare dodger due to her 'expecting' and £80 brush off??

People who know about that or in other areas, a penalty fare, seem quite happy to take the risk to do this, I mean, how else would she have known about any form of £80 settlement from any TOC let alone ATW?

She says in the article that it's not possible to exit at Cardiff without paying, I assume because there are ticket gates. If that's true it would seem unlikely she's a serial fare dodger.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. This makes me suspect that this was a one off, though ATW might not have shared that view.

 

[soil]

She says in the article that it's not possible to exit at Cardiff without paying, I assume because there are ticket gates. If that's true it would seem unlikely she's a serial fare dodger.

She didn't exit at Cardiff though - it was at Cathays. It doesn't look like the sort of station where you can't exit without a ticket to me? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathays_railway_station

 

[DaleCooper]

She says in the article that it's not possible to exit at Cardiff without paying, I assume because there are ticket gates. If that's true it would seem unlikely she's a serial fare dodger.

Perhaps she makes other journeys which do not end at Cardiff.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It doesn't look like the sort of station where you can't exit without a ticket to me?

Cathays has ticket barriers.

Image from NRES.

 

[Clip]

She says in the article that it's not possible to exit at Cardiff without paying, I assume because there are ticket gates. If that's true it would seem unlikely she's a serial fare dodger.

No it doesnt.

Disability support worker Jenny Shearman was travelling from Llandaf station to Cathays,

And one stop before Queen st too which I assume has barriers? Though I stand to be corrected on that one. See how it all adds up??

 

[Gareth Marston]

I used to live in Cardiff and used Valley Lines regularly from Whitchurch station (I could see the platform from the window of my flat). All the services then were PayTrains, and usually one could buy a ticket from the guard; only occasionally did I need to buy it on arrival in Cardiff.

However, I noted on a recent visit back to Cardiff that all stations are now governed by Penalty Fare rules, and have TVMs, so woe betide anyone who doesn't buy a ticket before boarding. The only time when the passenger might run into problems when not having done anything wrong is if the booking office (for manned stations) is closed, the TVM(s) are not working, one is unable to buy a ticket from the guard, and the staff at the Cardiff central stations (Queen St/General) are not aware that the TVM(s) at the boarding station are out of order and won't accept the passenger's statement to that effect.

TVM's= Card only? Passenger wants to pay by cash? A grey area when your trying to enforce buy before you board.

Can a TOC compel customers to pay by card only?

 

[Bletchleyite]

TVM's= Card only? Passenger wants to pay by cash? A grey area when your trying to enforce buy before you board.



Can a TOC compel customers to pay by card only?

LM (who have few if any cash TVMs) say no, if you wish to pay cash and have enough cash a card TVM is not an opportunity to pay.

Hand over a card at the barrier, though, and I imagine that would be £20. (LM are not typically prosecution heavy)

 

[Clip]

Cathays has ticket barriers.

Image from NRES.

Interesting and why she got stopped by an inspector then.

Anyone local know if these barriers are open normally or closed?

And none of this still doesnt absolve her of not purchasing a ticket before she boarded nor responding to the TOC or the court when her appeal failed.

To sum it up - her own fault. Every last bit of it.

 

[sheff1]

She didn't exit at Cardiff though - it was at Cathays. It doesn't look like the sort of station where you can't exit without a ticket to me? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathays_railway_station

I would bet that there are no National Rail stations where the absolutely determined could not exit without a ticket. Cathays, though, has barriers as the woman stated.

 

[185]

Violent crimes and crimes involving dangerous driving are taken far less seriously than they should be in this country.

Sort of reminds me of a certain animated film based on an America where extreme censorship of foul language took place, whereas gratuitous violence was considered perfectly acceptable.

*Sings* "shut your . . . . face uncle . . . . your'e a . . ."

 

[Joe Paxton]

I would bet that there are no National Rail stations where the absolutely determined could not exit without a ticket. Cathays, though, has barriers as the woman stated.

The gated London Overground stations perhaps come close - they seem to manage to have the gates operational almost all the time that trains are running. That said they won't necessarily stop the "absolutely determined" (e.g. deftly slipping behind a ticket holder through a gate etc).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The animated series/film concerned was certainly not short of uncensored swearing!

 

[BRX]

TVM's= Card only? Passenger wants to pay by cash? A grey area when your trying to enforce buy before you board.

Can a TOC compel customers to pay by card only?

As it happens I was in Wales a couple of weeks ago; Haverfordwest station, the ticket office was closed but there was a cards-only TVM. A young spanish woman was concerned about whether or not she could buy tickets on the train: she had no card. There wasn't an easy way for me to quickly find out for sure on the spot - even with english as my first language and several decades of travel on UK railways. I'm not particularly familiar with ATW. I thought she would probably be ok but in the end, we offered to buy her a ticket on the machine and she gave us cash. As it happened the guard on the train was selling tickets and also very on the ball, even offering one customer various options including excesses to suit his particular journey. But I'm never 100% sure what the situation is because it various so much across the country. This inconsistency and uncertainty isn't fair to passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that in the presence of a TVM there should be a clear statement on what happens if:-

1. You wish to pay by a method the TVM does not accept

2. The TVM will not accept your card/coin/banknote but is not broken

3. The TVM is out of order.

4. You can't work out how to use the TVM.

5. The TVM should issue your ToD but won't.

If excuses are too common, they might want to consider the Metrolink approach of requiring use of the help point to get a reference number to allow travel and payment on board. However, there would also need to be a clear statement of what to do if that too is out of order, as is likely if the cause of the TVM being unusable is something like a power failure.

On non-DOO lines run with short MUs, this is likely to be "speak to the guard before you board the train, he will usually be at the rear at this station". Anyone boarding and taking a seat without doing so would be assumed to be fare dodging, and anyone who approaches the guard before boarding will be assumed to be intending to pay (could perhaps be given a "PERTIS" card collected back in when a ticket is sold). That's roughly how it works, or worked, on DB DOO lines with no TVMs - tell the driver you want a ticket, he'll tell you to sit down and tip inspectors off if they board. (DB does not do station blocks and all non-S-Bahn stations are fully open with no compulsory ticket area, all revenue protection is carried out on board).

 

[soil]

I would bet that there are no National Rail stations where the absolutely determined could not exit without a ticket. Cathays, though, has barriers as the woman stated.

Doesn't it depend on the time of day? My local station has 10x more passengers than Cathays, but even there there the barriers are open at certain times of day (or more probably night).

I would bow to local knowledge on this, however.