Passenger Assist Issue

[WAB]

It doesn't necessarily have to be a "massive increase in staffing". You could quite easily start off just filling gaps in the existing staff schedules. Or advertise it, let people ring up and say "sorry, we're at capacity" to judge whether there is sufficient demand, something which would require no extra staffing.

What do you mean by filling gaps in the existing staff schedules? If you mean doing additional assists for those not covered by the existing service: when they are not booked, they are needed to stand by to attend to ad-hoc requests or passengers who have been placed on different trains compared to their original bookings. They may also have other station duties to complete. My experience is that passenger assist staff do not have much down time. Furthermore, if the discretionary service is routinely unavailable, it would discredit the railway and after the first few refusals, people would stop trying to book.

@WAB would you mind me asking if you are (or have been) a railway employee?

Yes, I am.

 

[sheff1]

When I was charged with booking assistance, the policy was that assistance could not be pre-booked if it was simply that you had too much luggage or were handling a pram. Pre-booking was intended for those with those who were elderly, had a disability, and so forth.

I am "elderly" by common definition yet require no assistance of any sort unlike, say, a single mother with a young child who wants to have a short break for the first time since the child's birth and obviously needs to take child-associated paraphernalia as well as the normal adult requirements for such a break. Sounds like the policy is at fault to me.

TOCs have a legal duty to offer assistance for disabled and elderly passengers under the Equality Act 2010.

Where in that act does it say I, as elderly, must be offered assistance? As far as I tell it only requires that I am not discriminated against due to age, have I missed something ?

 

[michael8]

Where in that act does it say I, as elderly, must be offered assistance? As far as I tell it only requires that I am not discriminated against due to age, have I missed something ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2025 ==

I think if you were to make the claim that you were not able to travel because of your advanced age (age being a protected characteristic) the TOC would be at fault if they did not provide assistance, in order to be compliant with the Equality Act 2010...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2025 ==

I am "elderly" by common definition yet require no assistance of any sort unlike, say, a single mother with a young child who wants to have a short break for the first time since the child's birth and obviously needs to take child-associated paraphernalia as well as the normal adult requirements for such a break. Sounds like the policy is at fault to me.


Where in that act does it say I, as elderly, must be offered assistance? As far as I tell it only requires that I am not discriminated against due to age, have I missed something ?

It's not that elderly must be offered assistance, rather, if you asked and were refused assistance, the TOC would be foul of the law (TTBOMU)

 

[LowLevel]

I've read all this and thought about it, and then read it some more.

I honestly don't understand why some railway staff are being picky about passenger assist. As long as you're not being asked to heave around suitcases with bricks in them (and you have the right to refuse anything you can't reasonably manage to lift anyway) who cares who it's for/why it's been booked? It's marvellous job creation. You might get the odd chancer but does it matter?

My mum used to ask for BR and successors passenger assistance every year to help her take her young family on holiday alone and I don't remember anyone staff wise being anything but obliging, particularly as we were hurried between trains through the subway at New Street using a borrowed parcels barrow for the cases!

 

[TUC]

I think this issue reflects a wider issue in society of some people wanting rules to define the response to every situation.

Should there be a rule that parents with young children and luggage should fall into those eligible for assistance? No, having young children is part of life, not a disability, and that would risk overwhelming the assistance system and leave those with disabilities less likely to receive timely help.

Should staff be willing to offer to help if they see someone with young children and luggage struggling to get on a train? Yes of course, as should other passengers, and many do in both cases.

It doesn't need a rule or a booking system, just a normal human response of looking out for one another.

 

[43066]

That's not the full description of what happened:


It's also not correct to say, "we don't do prams" - it's that, "we don't do prams for passengers who aren't disabled, elderly, or less mobile". They could've taken 10 seconds to explain that passenger assist is for those groups, not just any passengers who have prams or heavy luggage. Given the Passenger Assist forms I've just sampled, most of them don't actually require selecting a disability, mobility need, etc; you can indeed tick that you need help with luggage and proceed to booking. It doesn't sound like RPM's pal intentionally booked it knowing it wasn't designed for them.

We would have to have been there to know the full context, but it seems they were right to say “we don’t do prams” in the context of the OP’s situation. The LNWR website also clearly states:

We support the rail industry Passenger Assist scheme which enables disabled and older customers to discuss and book their assistance requirements in advance of their journey.

So it is very clear who it’s intended for. The most generous interpretation of the situation is that the passenger made a mistake. It’s also entirely possible that they knowingly booked a service not intended for them. I can well understand the staff being frustrated - they may well have had to keep someone else waiting to deal with an inappropriate request.

As my mum would say though, "two wrongs don't make a right." Passenger mistakes are common; unless there's reason to believe it was an intentional misuse of the system, there's no excuse for poor customer service and loudly complaining about passengers as you walk away from them.

I don’t think the situations are at all equivalent. People are very quick (often rightly) to criticise when railway assistance fails - now we have an example of it being misused in a way that could take it away from those who most need it, and people are defending that. It just seems a little inconsistent.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

@WAB good points, but as far as this goes...

Furthermore, if the discretionary service is routinely unavailable, it would discredit the railway a

...I fear that ship may have sailed already.

 

[Travelmonkey]

The big issue is you can't judge disabilities on a quick glance, we are getting het up but kids can have disabilities too, ultimately some staff struggle to understand passenger needs.

Ever since falling between a voyager and a platform I always request the ramp, some staff see me on my cane and seem reluctant to do the ramp for me, one gaurd for a intercity operator even as far as shouting "Get Back" and "You absolute clown" because I booked passenger assit.


Staff could have still walked with the OP customer and kept a watch and explain why they "don't do prams" rather than abandoning a customer. Even their foot in the door to keep the sensor blocked and door open would take less time and still give at least some help. We are drummed as society "not every disability is visible" but it don't take much to be nice and if you can't be polite prehaps reconsider a job where you are in a customer facing role!

 

[LowLevel]

The big issue is you can't judge disabilities on a quick glance, we are getting het up but kids can have disabilities too, ultimately some staff struggle to understand passenger needs.

Ever since falling between a voyager and a platform I always request the ramp, some staff see me on my cane and seem reluctant to do the ramp for me, one gaurd for a intercity operator even as far as shouting "Get Back" and "You absolute clown" because I booked passenger assit.


Staff could have still walked with the OP customer and kept a watch and explain why they "don't do prams" rather than abandoning a customer. Even their foot in the door to keep the sensor blocked and door open would take less time and still give at least some help. We are drummed as society "not every disability is visible" but it don't take much to be nice and if you can't be polite prehaps reconsider a job where you are in a customer facing role!

I don't object to doing prams personally - however what I do object to is when they want me to dead lift a large heavy pram off the floor out of a train forwards.

If I help it's done my way - the safe way - on forwards and off backwards, otherwise they can manhandle it themselves. Always happy to demonstrate and explain to new parents/grandparents etc as it is not something someone teaches you.

 

[Bikeman78]

Most common is pushchair first when leaving the train, usually tipping the child downwards. I've seen several children tipped out of the pushchair this way.

Or missing the step when trying to board so that the front wheels go down the gap. If there was a big step, I grabbed the buggy with both hands and heaved it on or off. Other people would often help though. I ditched the buggy at the earliest possible opportunity. My kids have been used to trains from almost day one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2025 ==

What is of help is a member of staff who will ensure the train doesn't depart whilst you're getting luggage, pushchair and child on board. I can remember when our children were little being concerned of this happening whilst one of the above was still on the platform.

I was growing up during the transition from slam door to sliding door. I had the same concern. The class 455 didn't have warblers in the 1980s. The doors simply shut without warning. The New York R32 car doors were faster and almost silent. Amazing that they lasted until 2020.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2025 ==

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2025 ==

I think if you were to make the claim that you were not able to travel because of your advanced age (age being a protected characteristic) the TOC would be at fault if they did not provide assistance, in order to be compliant with the Equality Act 2010...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2025 ==


It's not that elderly must be offered assistance, rather, if you asked and were refused assistance, the TOC would be foul of the law (TTBOMU)

But if we are not allowed to discriminate, then couldn't a 30 year old ask for assistance?

 

[43066]

Ever since falling between a voyager and a platform I always request the ramp, some staff see me on my cane and seem reluctant to do the ramp for me, one gaurd for a intercity operator even as far as shouting "Get Back" and "You absolute clown" because I booked passenger assit.

There’s no excuse for that (I hope you complained), and it’s regrettable that there isn’t more training about hidden disabilities.

But if we are not allowed to discriminate, then couldn't a 30 year old ask for assistance?

Assistance like this is intended for anyone who requires it at any age due to age or disability, and there’s (rightly) no requirement to prove any particular disability or health condition - however this does leave it open to misuse.

 

[Travelmonkey]

There’s no excuse for that (I hope you complained), and it’s regrettable that there isn’t more training about hidden disabilities

Yep it got some mild traction on Twitter and I have other things in play, ultimately I have since learned that staff on that TOC don't use the passenger assist app as there is a "union dispute" as for the voyager incident I was trying to do things without help as I had my partner with me. He has since learned why I book the ramp after that fall,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2025 ==

But if we are not allowed to discriminate, then couldn't a 30 year old ask for assistance?

I'm 27 and book assistance, after the 9th moreso with being a wheelchair user, although I could hover up onto the train as not to inconvenience staff

 

[SCDR_WMR]

All LNWR stations and conductors use the PA app, it's on our mobile devices as standard and has been trained out at least twice since inception (one of the person originally implementing the app now works for TransReport who make the app)

 

[RPM]

There’s no excuse for that (I hope you complained), and it’s regrettable that there isn’t more training about hidden disabilities.



Assistance like this is intended for anyone who requires it at any age due to age or disability, and there’s (rightly) no requirement to prove any particular disability or health condition - however this does leave it open to misuse.

I had a quick look through all the TOC websites the other day, and the majority make it clear that assistance is for those with particular mobility needs. However, several TOCs are much more vague and could certainly give someone the impression that assistance is more widely available, to parents with prams etc. Avanti and Chiltern fall very much into this category. I think Merseyrail, Northern, SWR & TfW were similar.

Also interesting, but slightly off topic, is the differences between different TOC websites and the number of hoops a user has to jump through to find the assistance details.

 

[Travelmonkey]

All LNWR stations and conductors use the PA app, it's on our mobile devices as standard and has been trained out at least twice since inception (one of the person originally implementing the app now works for TransReport who make the app)

And they still seem suprised to see me nah LNWR & WMR guards are generally pretty good as are the drivers whom I've had to annoy on occasion,

 

[Harpo]

It will be interesting to see whether GBR rationalise policies and customer services such as these into a uniform product.

 

[Horizon22]

It will be interesting to see whether GBR rationalise policies and customer services such as these into a uniform product.

I think some people (not saying you are one) hoping that GBR will solve all of the industry’s various local quirks, policies, bad practices and T&Cs, whilst noble and good-intentioned, may be ambitious.

I am with others that state whilst larger stations may have “customer assist” staff, it is incumbent on all to know the basics (ramp training for instance) and if it is not overly detrimental to their duties, help out even if they don’t have to legally. There is of course a line, but then you have to firmly - and crucially - politely decline.

 

[Harpo]

I think some people (not saying you are one) hoping that GBR will solve all of the industry’s various local quirks, policies, bad practices and T&Cs, whilst noble and good-intentioned, may be ambitious.

Agree entirely, especially on T&Cs.

The minister’s first priority is clearly driving out costs. Let’s see how far down her list the customer will be.

 

[TUC]

It will be interesting to see whether GBR rationalise policies and customer services such as these into a uniform product.

The PA app is presented to passengers as a uniform product.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I think some people (not saying you are one) hoping that GBR will solve all of the industry’s various local quirks, policies, bad practices and T&Cs, whilst noble and good-intentioned, may be ambitious.

I am with others that state whilst larger stations may have “customer assist” staff, it is incumbent on all to know the basics (ramp training for instance)

I've said for a while DOO drivers need to be put through their ramp training that way they can resolve the issues off a TUAG mexican standoff that currently happens at some stations, even in Pre Booked assists some wheelchair users are pascomming as staff are not present, on a couple of trains I've used recently Catering staff have helped with ensuring etherying goes smoothly in my alights, I just hope I don't have too much issue at the infamous Willsden junction taking my new wheelchair home,

 

[Harpo]

I've said for a while DOO drivers need to be put through their ramp training

It’s an absolute nonsense to expect drivers anywhere to close their desk, walk up to 12 carriage lengths, collect and return ramps, walk back to the cab, reopen the desk and depart, let alone on DOO routes which are usually high frequency with minimal dwell timed and almost zero schedule resilience.

Just not workable. Sorry.

 

[Horizon22]

I've said for a while DOO drivers need to be put through their ramp training

I’m pretty sure drivers on DOO routes do get ramp training but a) they might have had it years back and never done it since and b) it would be incredibly time consuming to secure the cab (and contact signaller), find the ramp, assist the passenger wherever required, put back the ramp, walk back to the cab, set up and go.

It isn’t practical and would need to be reserved for emergency situations.

 

[TUC]

It’s an absolute nonsense to expect drivers anywhere to close their desk, walk up to 12 carriage lengths, collect and return ramps, walk back to the cab, reopen the desk and depart, let alone on DOO routes which are usually high frequency with minimal dwell timed and almost zero schedule resilience.

Just not workable. Sorry.

I can see the problem, but is there any inherent reason in the types of trains used on DOO services why it would necessarily only be a carriage a long way down the train which is accessible, as opposed to asking passengers to be near the front of the train for boarding?

 

[Harpo]

I can see the problem, but is there any inherent reason in the types of trains used on DOO services why it would necessarily only be a carriage a long way down the train which is accessible, as opposed to asking passengers to be near the front of the train for boarding?

But then how far away is the boarding ramp? (Or even where is it?) Plus taking it back and locking it up. And that’s on top of what, 3-5 minutes from & to the cab with shut down/re-open?

On planned 30-60 second dwells and and high frequencies somewhere along that journey or the next the ripples will spread.

 

[TUC]

But then how far away is the boarding ramp? (Or even where is it?) Plus taking it back and locking it up. And that’s on top of what, 3-5 minutes from & to the cab with shut down/re-open?

On planned 30-60 second dwells and and high frequencies somewhere along that journey or the next the ripples will spread.

Presumably it would be possible to store the ramp near to the cab? In terms of dwell times, whilst I recognise that the driver providing this assistance will add to them, assistance from any staff will extend dwell times and that's just an inherent part of providing the service.

 

[father_jack]

It’s an absolute nonsense to expect drivers anywhere to close their desk, walk up to 12 carriage lengths, collect and return ramps, walk back to the cab, reopen the desk and depart, let alone on DOO routes which are usually high frequency with minimal dwell timed and almost zero schedule resilience.

Just not workable. Sorry.

I note from Iarnrod Eireann (Ireland) that the drivers were having to do ramps at least on the Waterford Dublin line at Bagnalstown and Thomastown. The trains are meant to have a "CSO" Customer Service Officer but often don't and the stations have unfilled vacancies.

 

[berneyarms]

I note from Iarnrod Eireann (Ireland) that the drivers were having to do ramps at least on the Waterford Dublin line at Bagnalstown and Thomastown. The trains are meant to have a "CSO" Customer Service Officer but often don't and the stations have unfilled vacancies.

Those two stations are actually unstaffed.

 

[Travelmonkey]

It’s an absolute nonsense to expect drivers anywhere to close their desk, walk up to 12 carriage lengths, collect and return ramps, walk back to the cab, reopen the desk and depart, let alone on DOO routes which are usually high frequency with minimal dwell timed and almost zero schedule resilience.

Just not workable. Sorry.

So leave disabled people on platforms/overcarried due to lack of on station staff? TUAG is a right for all disabled people. It is not our fault TOCs can't staff themselves propperly, this is why people will pascom when noone is there to help so the driver will need to get out their cab to reset the alarm. the fact that even pre booked assits are uncatered for makes the railway even less uncaring for those most vanurable!

 

[Harpo]

So leave disabled people on platforms/overcarried due to lack of on station staff? TUAG is a right for all disabled people. It is not our fault TOCs can't staff themselves propperly, this is why people will pascom when noone is there to help so the driver will need to get out their cab to reset the alarm. the fact that even pre booked assits are uncatered for makes the railway even less uncaring for those most vanurable!

My point is simply that the performance impact of putting the onus on drivers would disadvantage thousands by collapsing the train service.

None of it is right. The railway has to make assisted travel work reliably for everybody.

 

[bleeder4]

As a fit and able man I have actually used passenger assist a few times myself, if I'm travelling with a few bulky/heavy items of luggage and don't want to carry them off the train and out to the taxi by myself. There's no requirement to be "registered disabled" (as previously mentioned) so the service can technically be booked by anyone.