Partial branch-passenger bus-substitutions, "way back when"

[Taunton]

Home delivery is nothing new. As a child of the late 1950s we had home delivery of : Milk (of course); Paper boy; Bread ("the baker" came about 9.30 with a big basket including some goodies, but all that ever got taken were two plain loaves); Grocer (take in "the order", handwritten, to the shop, it was delivered with his plain green Morris Minor van in the evening once a week); Postman (twice a day then); Laundry (used for heavyweight bed sheets etc) - and a few others. Being in the South-west we once a year got the stereotypical "French Onion Man", on a bicycle strewn with strings of onions all round. I know some here will never heard of such a delivery service so here's a description https://www.angloinfo.com/blogs/france/riviera/riviera-ramblings/berets-onions-and-stereotypes/

 

[WesternLancer]

Home delivery is nothing new. As a child of the late 1950s we had home delivery of : Milk (of course); Paper boy; Bread ("the baker" came about 9.30 with a big basket including some goodies, but all that ever got taken were two plain loaves); Grocer (take in "the order", handwritten, to the shop, it was delivered with his plain green Morris Minor van in the evening once a week); Postman (twice a day then); Laundry (used for heavyweight bed sheets etc) - and a few others. Being in the South-west we once a year got the stereotypical "French Onion Man", on a bicycle strewn with strings of onions all round. I know some here will never heard of such a delivery service so here's a description https://www.angloinfo.com/blogs/france/riviera/riviera-ramblings/berets-onions-and-stereotypes/

Very interesting link.
Yes, home delivery now is a restoration in modern form of what was once common. Certainly up until at least early to mid 1980s we dropped a handwritten list in a notebook for the purpose to the village shop and the items were delivered a day or two later. I think this only ended when the shopkeeper retired and no one wanted to take on the shop as a general grocery business, no doubt as unable to compete with the larger and out of town supermarkets that had opened in the last 5 to 8 years prior to that date. The shop remains, but I think now an antique shop.
But the interesting thing about the shop to me as a child was that as additional storage for the shop, adjacent to it, was what was clearly a railway box van, positioned abutting the shop building end on. But not the common 50s era vans, something much older, that I always suspected was probably an old LBSC van that had been there a long time - despite being some miles form the nearest railway line. This was well painted and always seemed structurally sound. Sadly this seems to have been demolished at some point in the intervening period, to create access to a car park at the rear, probably on what was once the shopkeepers garden.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Was it done at all ( or to any degree ) before common carrier status was cancelled? or perhaps pre-ww2? ( around the time the OP was looking at for bus replacement ).

Local coal deliveries served local gasworks too, that was in decline roughly contemporary with local goods, I guess ( I'm not quite old enough to remember working coal gas ).

The answer, as I understand it, is "yes". The Common Carrier Obligation (which seems to be a particular obsession of this Forum, being blamed for all sorts of things such as the shortcomings of the 1955 Modernisation Plan) meant that the railway had to accept traffic onto its system at published (i.e. standard and non-discriminatory) rates. It wasn't obliged to provide all facilities at all stations. Thornton Dale never accepted 'wheeled' traffic for example, presumably because it lacked an end-loading dock. There was nothing to prevent stations or lines being closed. Traffic could only be consigned to open stations. Plenty of stations and depots closed (by private railway companies and the BTC) before the Obligation was effectively removed under the 1953 act.

Getting back to the original post - about branch passenger bus substitutions - it is worth noting that the World's very first passenger/mixed traffic railway - the Oystermouth/Swansea & Mumbles - got its act in 1804, opened for both classes of traffic in 1807 but suspended its (contracted out) passenger services in 1826 when the parallel road was improved and a 'stagecoach' service introduced. So the practice really is as old as railways.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Very interesting link.
Yes, home delivery now is a restoration in modern form of what was once common. Certainly up until at least early to mid 1980s we dropped a handwritten list in a notebook for the purpose to the village shop and the items were delivered a day or two later. I think this only ended when the shopkeeper retired and no one wanted to take on the shop as a general grocery business, no doubt as unable to compete with the larger and out of town supermarkets that had opened in the last 5 to 8 years prior to that date. The shop remains, but I think now an antique shop.
But the interesting thing about the shop to me as a child was that as additional storage for the shop, adjacent to it, was what was clearly a railway box van, positioned abutting the shop building end on. But not the common 50s era vans, something much older, that I always suspected was probably an old LBSC van that had been there a long time - despite being some miles form the nearest railway line. This was well painted and always seemed structurally sound. Sadly this seems to have been demolished at some point in the intervening period, to create access to a car park at the rear, probably on what was once the shopkeepers garden.

Off topic (sorry) - but I'm always amazed at how far from a rail line you can find old railway vans. Last weekend had a lovely run along Loch Eck in Argyllshire, and came across what was quite clearly an old short wheelbase four wheel covered van, in a farmer's field. So far as i can make out, the nearest railway station is Garelochhead, but there's no direct road connection to the Loch Eck area. Unless it was taken over by ferry via Dunoon (which is still a long journey) it would have needed to come off the railway at Arrochar & Tarbet, and then be conveyed by road over the Rest and Be Thankful pass and then down via Strachur - just doesn't seem worth it just to "build" a small hut?

 

[Calthrop]

Getting back to the original post - about branch passenger bus substitutions - it is worth noting that the World's very first passenger/mixed traffic railway - the Oystermouth/Swansea & Mumbles - got its act in 1804, opened for both classes of traffic in 1807 but suspended its (contracted out) passenger services in 1826 when the parallel road was improved and a 'stagecoach' service introduced. So the practice really is as old as railways.

This is delightful -- unknown to me, hitherto. "Nothing new under the sun", or what?

 

[WesternLancer]

Off topic (sorry) - but I'm always amazed at how far from a rail line you can find old railway vans. Last weekend had a lovely run along Loch Eck in Argyllshire, and came across what was quite clearly an old short wheelbase four wheel covered van, in a farmer's field. So far as i can make out, the nearest railway station is Garelochhead, but there's no direct road connection to the Loch Eck area. Unless it was taken over by ferry via Dunoon (which is still a long journey) it would have needed to come off the railway at Arrochar & Tarbet, and then be conveyed by road over the Rest and Be Thankful pass and then down via Strachur - just doesn't seem worth it just to "build" a small hut?

Yes, whereas my example was only about 5 miles from nearest LBSCR line.
Forum probably needs an ongoing thread dedicated to 'Old railway wagons and carriages re-purposed into agricultural, residential and related uses - their locations and current status' or some such!

 

[Irascible]

The answer, as I understand it, is "yes". The Common Carrier Obligation (which seems to be a particular obsession of this Forum, being blamed for all sorts of things such as the shortcomings of the 1955 Modernisation Plan) meant that the railway had to accept traffic onto its system at published (i.e. standard and non-discriminatory) rates. It wasn't obliged to provide all facilities at all stations. Thornton Dale never accepted 'wheeled' traffic for example, presumably because it lacked an end-loading dock. There was nothing to prevent stations or lines being closed. Traffic could only be consigned to open stations. Plenty of stations and depots closed (by private railway companies and the BTC) before the Obligation was effectively removed under the 1953 act.

Thanks - time to find some studies on the turning point when - historically - road haulage became more economical than local goods ( similarily for the bus, in an attempt to stay on topic! ). I know there's other factors like tax & subsidies to consider.

 

[Waldgrun]

Just a thought and perhaps stretching things a bit too far. Could the early use of road vehicles as railmotors on such lines as the County Donegal, West Sussex (Selsey), Derwent Valley, K.E.S.R. and the Shropshire & Montgomery Rly. count?

 

[Calthrop]

Just a thought and perhaps stretching things a bit too far. Could the early use of road vehicles as railmotors on such lines as the County Donegal, West Sussex (Selsey), Derwent Valley, K.E.S.R. and the Shropshire & Montgomery Rly. count?

As per my OP -- I was thinking principally of the Big Four companies, and of outright substitution for trains on rail, by road vehicles running on roads ; but I'd reckon topic-drift healthy, and most kinds of discussion, interesting... I get the picture (perhaps not totally correctly) that the referred-to, was stuff which the big companies of the Grouping era (in Great Britain, anyway -- Ireland to some extent, another story) emphatically did not go in for -- too gimcrack and undignified for them? Some of the Big Four did, if I'm right, make some introduction of purpose-built internal-combustion railcars, especially the GWR and largely in the 1930s; but "made-over" road vehicles, I'd have thought not. (Corrections welcomed...)

 

[Waldgrun]

Calthrop, you referred to B.C.R.'s venerable Berliet bus, I believe that the company owned two vehicles, but I am not sure of the details for the second. But I find of interest that there have been some recollections made, where the individual has stated that they traveled on the B.C.R. by Railbus! As the line never operated such items, I believe they may have confused by the use of these buses, especially if they are recalling memories of childhood! It is most likely that the state of the roads would have left a lasting impression at the time!(Not much better now!)

 

[Calthrop]

I'd certainly think: confusing / conflating memories from most of a lifetime ago... anything I've read about i/c vehicles of the Bishop's Castle, made it clear that they were "running-on-roads, road jobs". Or might it be just possible that the "recollector" used the word "railbus" -- unconventionally -- to refer to a road bus (correctly remembered as such) owned by a railway, and used in emergencies, to deputise for on-rails workings??

If Colonel Stephens had ever taken the BCR into his flock -- which I gather was briefly considered in the 1920s -- things might have been different in that respect; but it didn't happen. I like the maybe apocryphal tale, which I've mentioned before on these Forums: about Stephens's "second-in-command" W.H. Austen, going at the Colonel's behest to take a look at the BCR, pursuant to thoughts of a takeover; and Austen coming back and reporting to the boss, to the effect of "have nothing to do with this one -- it's in such a hopeless state that not even you could turn it around".