part paying: is an already-held ticket sufficient

[34D]

Hello,

A question on the scenario of a closed ticket office, but a working TVM:

NRCOC Clause 3 states:

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

My question is, assuming I already hold a ticket (which could be a day ticket or a season) is it sufficient that I hold a ticket that allows me to make part of my journey, or must I buy something from the TVM?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There is no official answer to my knowledge, though I suspect most members of staff would accept an already held ticket if the ticket you require is not available from your starting station, if it covers part of your journey.

 

[bb21]

What facilities are available at your origin station?

 

[Tetchytyke]

From The Manual:

However, if the Train Companies did not provide the customer with the opportunity to buy or validate a ticket or pay the excess fare before boarding the train, then the customer is entitled to the same range of fares and discounts that would have been available at a ticket office.

You can't buy an excess fare from a TVM, therefore you did not have the opportunity to buy.

 

[jb]

You can't buy an excess fare from a TVM, therefore you did not have the opportunity to buy.

This can't be right. For starter's, it's not an excess at all, is it? Even if it is, the TVM can be used to buy a ticket that allows them to make at least part of the journey.

It perhaps gets a bit murkier if it's an origin-only TVM and the pre-held ticket covers the first part of the prospective journey, but in other cases I think you'll have a hard time denying an opportunity to buy on these grounds.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It depends what the ticket is, which makes it very murky.

Season tickets can be "excessed" by charging you the single/return fare from the last valid station on your ticket to your actual destination.

Day tickets can sometimes be excessed, it depends if they're zonal or London day travelcards, and sometimes they can't.

If you hold a ticket from A to B and you want to go to C via B, then the TVM usually won't give you the opportunity to buy the excess fare. I know some FCC ticket machines (allegedly) now allow you to buy from other destinations, but the ones I've used in the north east certainly don't. It's been a while since I used a TVM mind.

But you're right: you can't just hold any old ticket between two places 100 miles away and expect to argue you had no opportunity to buy.

 

[RJ]

There is no official answer to my knowledge, though I suspect most members of staff would accept an already held ticket if the ticket you require is not available from your starting station, if it covers part of your journey.

You'd think so wouldn't you? I've bought Loughborough to Barrow Upon Soar singles from the TVM after the ticket office has shut then when I get on the fast train to London, some TMs have tried to say they don't excess tickets and they're only prepared to sell a single from Barrow to London and nothing else. Invalid combinations are fine when it suits them but going by the book has to be made into a big deal.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Most members of staff don't work for EMT.......

 

[34D]

What facilities are available at your origin station?

For the purposes of the question, let's assume the origin (of this particular journey) is Winchmore Hill, the paper ticket already held is Winchmore Hill-Alexandra Palace (irrelevant whether a return or a season) but the desired end point is Finsbury Park.

Card/cash, origin-only TVM at Winchmore, passenger wanting to pay by card. Do they need to buy _something_ from that TVM?
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It perhaps gets a bit murkier if it's an origin-only TVM and the pre-held ticket covers the first part of the prospective journey, but in other cases I think you'll have a hard time denying an opportunity to buy on these grounds.

This is exactly the scenario

 

[bb21]

For the purposes of the question, let's assume the origin (of this particular journey) is Winchmore Hill, the paper ticket already held is Winchmore Hill-Alexandra Palace (irrelevant whether a return or a season) but the desired end point is Finsbury Park.

Card/cash, origin-only TVM at Winchmore, passenger wanting to pay by card. Do they need to buy _something_ from that TVM?

If there is no open ticket office, then I don't think they do.

They already have a ticket for part of the journey, and whatever they buy from the TVM would not be valid, unless it allows them to buy tickets from a different origin.

 

[cuccir]

The example which came to my mind would be a customer getting on at Morpeth in the afternoon (ticket office closes at 12:40) holding a Morpeth - Newcastle ticket, but wanting to travel to Durham (or indeed anywhere further down the ECML). I'd expect them to be able to obtain an excess on board the train, or at their destination.

 

[island]

I personally think that the already-held ticket would be sufficient in this scenario.