Parking

[mikecambs]

On Dec 4th 2012 my wife and I were travelling from Ely station for the first time. When we arrived at the station, the car park was already full, but there were cars parked kerbside around the car park. I checked that there were no signs stating "Parking in marked bays only", or any yellow lines, but could find none. I, there fore, parked kerbside - close to the kerb and not obstructing traffic in any way. I purchased a ticket, and, as we walked to the station, checked that there were no further signs along the way. When we returned later that day, there was a ticket on our car, and others, stating that I had "not parked in a marked bay". I appealed, but, as I expected, this was rejected. I returned to the car park, and found that there was a sign on the main road, at the entrance to the station, on the opposite side to a driver. On examination, it contained an extraordinary amount of "small print", and, even if one noticed it, one could not really be expected to read it all and still catch one's train.

I also noticed that there were still cars parked kerbside in the main car park.

This is clearly something which arises everyday, yet, rather than improve the signage, NCP choose to issue tickets.

I consider this to be a money-making scam, not car park management, and complained to Trading Standards, who agreed that it was a serious matter, but they were not going to investigate because of lack of resources.

What does anyone else think?

 

[johnnyp_360]

I park for free on Annesdale Road (or there abouts) and walk to the station. Ely station has such an annoyingly small car park, it is always full from early hours.
Regarding the problem, I don't think there would be any point in taking this matter to a small claims court. What are the legalities of parking on a kerbside?

 

[rdwarr]

If this was a "Parking Charge Notice" from a private parking company then it certainly should not be paid as it is indeed a "money making scam". All the appeal does is give your details to the company.
Did they mention an appeal to POPLA?

 

[tony_mac]

It is worth posting on pepipoo - that's the place for motoring tickets.

It probably is just another money-making scam, but you have to be careful with tickets issued on railway premises as they can be enforced by byelaws (although this rarely happens, as NCP won't make any money out of it that way!)

 

[rdwarr]

Good point about checking the byelaws. There's a specific thread on MSE about parking outside the bays at Ely here. Well worth a look.

 

[Stigy]

If issued by an agent of the TOC then chances are if wont be enforced if not paid (that's not to say they are powerless to enforce this, they just dont as it's more hassle and they dont have staff that would prosecute such cases etc), and to be honest this is how most companies go due to how easy it is with limited hassle. I certainly wouldn't worry too much, unless issued by the TOC themselves, in which case the ticket will clearly be a "Penalty Charge Notice" and not a Parking Charge Notice.

Please note though, that as with council parking tickets, the Railway Byelaws make the owner liable for the charge notice, and not the driver at the time, therefore where this is often a "get out" for private parking tickets, it unfortunately isn't with "real" ones. Aslo, "real" tickets would go to the Magistrates' court, not county court, as it's a criminal offence. You can rest assured though, that I've yet to see even an actual PCN enforced at court....That's not to say a precedent wont soon be set though, so bear in mind certainly for future reference.

 

[island]

Aslo, "real" tickets would go to the Magistrates' court, not county court, as it's a criminal offence.

That's only true for Fixed Penalty Notices issued by the police. Penalty Charge Notices issued by councils and TFL go through the County Court as they are civil matters.

Bear in mind that since last October a new law makes the registered keeper liable for Parking Charge Notices issued to the vehicle as though he were the driver, if he fails to identify who was driving at the time.

 

[BestWestern]

You need to take photographic evidence of the inadequate signage, and indeed lack of it within the main car park, and also of the other vehicles parked as you were, ideally on several different days to show that this happens frequently. Also do some research on the requirements for signage on car park restrictions. There should be some standard guidelines and they might well be falling foul of them if the sign was inadequate. If you went through NCP's own appeals process then keep all the paperwork, it shows that you've tried before taking it to the a higher level.

Go and speak to CAB or similar, you may be best sending in all your evidence to NCP and telling them to take you to Court or get lost. If it transpires that you are in the right, i.e. if they are failing to meet the requirements for signage etc, tell them in no uncertain terms that if it isn't dropped you will be taking them to Court to recover your costs, along with compensation for inconvenience etc. Whatever you do, don't pay it until you've exhausted all avenues. Bear in mind that all parking enforcement companies are grasping vultures who profit from the mistakes and misery of others, so be prepared for them to be utterly uncooperative. But, be persistent!

 

[Stigy]

That's only true for Fixed Penalty Notices issued by the police. Penalty Charge Notices issued by councils and TFL go through the County Court as they are civil matters.

Bear in mind that since last October a new law makes the registered keeper liable for Parking Charge Notices issued to the vehicle as though he were the driver, if he fails to identify who was driving at the time.

That's interesting, are TfL's tickets and those issued by councils not done so under their own byelaws? Obviously the railway ones would be, thus going to Magistrates' court.

All police FPNs and PNDs etc go to magistrates court and the appeals body is also the magistrates which I assumed was the same for councils.

 

[Waldgrun]

A quick question, where did the OP purchase the parking ticket from, a Machine or at the ticket window? There seems to be something very wrong here if you can purchase a ticket to park, but there are no spaces left to park in without receiving one of these parking enforcement notices!

 

[island]

That's interesting, are TfL's tickets and those issued by councils not done so under their own byelaws? Obviously the railway ones would be, thus going to Magistrates' court.

All police FPNs and PNDs etc go to magistrates court and the appeals body is also the magistrates which I assumed was the same for councils.

It's a bit complicated. Google "decriminalised parking enforcement" to get an understanding of how it works.

A quick question, where did the OP purchase the parking ticket from, a Machine or at the ticket window? There seems to be something very wrong here if you can purchase a ticket to park, but there are no spaces left to park in without receiving one of these parking enforcement notices!

Normally one parks before paying, no?

 

[michael769]

Bear in mind that since last October a new law makes the registered keeper liable for Parking Charge Notices issued to the vehicle as though he were the driver, if he fails to identify who was driving at the time.

Sorry but no - parking charge notices remain unlawful penalty charges. The only change is that landowners can go to court to recover any losses they actually incurred from the keeper only if they are unable to identify the driver.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/9155/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf

Note that in this DfT guidance the definition of landholder has not been updated to take account of HMRC vs VCS.

 

[island]

My statement was correct. I said it makes the registered keeper liable as though he were the driver. If the driver wasn't liable because the notice was defective, a contract wasn't concluded, etc. etc., the keeper won't be liable either.

I'm conscious that this is off-topic and that a number of other forums are giving out potentially inaccurate advice on the matter so won't be getting into further discussion.

 

[34D]

That's only true for Fixed Penalty Notices issued by the police. Penalty Charge Notices issued by councils and TFL go through the County Court as they are civil matters.

Bear in mind that since last October a new law makes the registered keeper liable for Parking Charge Notices issued to the vehicle as though he were the driver, if he fails to identify who was driving at the time.

I think when stigy was referring to 'real tickets' he was referring to the narrow concept of tickets issued at railway station car parks, not seeking to proclaim a nationwide policy on the issue as island perhaps assumed.

To the op: does the ticket mention 'railway byelaws' on it anywhere or have an address that appears to be a Greater Anglia address?

If not, then go to pepipoo and post in their 'private parking tickets and clamping' section. Their advice (in general) will be to ignore all correspondence, though it is slightly muddied by the fact that you've bought a parking ticket. Their guys will want to see a copy of the notice and a copy of your ticket (front and back for each).

If the ticket mentions either railway byelaws or GA, then you need to advice and support of this forum here (and potentially also, PePiPoo's 'Speeding and other criminal offences' section.

In the latter case (and again, we would want to see the notice and parking ticket first) we would assist you in writing a letter to the TOC (probably bypassing any agent such as NCP, Vinci et al) citing the inadequate signage, potentially the continued selling of tickets after the bays have become full, etc.

More information needed. Do not at this stage email/write/telephone anybody.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

That's interesting, are TfL's tickets and those issued by councils not done so under their own byelaws? Obviously the railway ones would be, thus going to Magistrates' court.

All police FPNs and PNDs etc go to magistrates court and the appeals body is also the magistrates which I assumed was the same for councils.

Regarding how are council Penalty Charge Notices enforced. It is under the Traffic Management Act 2004. Appeals are initially through council then if a Notice of Rejection of Representations is issued then it is the Traffic Penalty Tribunal who are the final auditor. This advice is for areas outside London