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Parking on Pavements (DfT consultation Sept 2020)

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Tetchytyke

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Much of pavement parking is the inability for drivers to judge space though.

That photo is amazing when you think that the Nissan Qashqai can literally reverse park itself. I know it can because I have one. It's a fun little toy, though often more faff than just reverse parking manually.

Most pavement parking is brainless- not in a pejorative sense, just literally not engaging a brain. Either it's clumsy parking or it is trying to help road users without stopping to think about the impact on pedestrians. It's why I would install higher kerbs, as in London, as and when kerbs need replacing.

Not possible for my road indeed the area I'm in.

If you can't park without leaving it on a pavement then it isn't safe to park where you do, and should consider parking somewhere else. Nobody is advocating banning street parking. If a homeowner has to park two streets away then tough. If a car is that essential it's no big deal.
 
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Vespa

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If you can't park without leaving it on a pavement then it isn't safe to park where you do, and should consider parking somewhere else. Nobody is advocating banning street parking. If a homeowner has to park two streets away then tough. If a car is that essential it's no big deal.

We have been able to park half on while leaving space for others.

You're making assumptions.
 

The Ham

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Do they also disable parking sensors?

This guy is being very responsible -- not even slightly blocking the road. What else could he possibly have done?

View attachment 83063

As had already been pointed out the double yellow lines enforce waiting restrictions up to the extent of the adopted highway, so in this case the driver could still return to their vehicle with a requirement to pay a fine.

It's something which is not well know which is why it's I'm repeating it.
 

ainsworth74

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If a homeowner has to park two streets away then tough. If a car is that essential it's no big deal.
It's not just two streets away though is it? In many places (such as where I live) there is nowhere else in the village to park. Only choice would be to turn a farmers field into a car park otherwise we're gonna need a park and ride as that's how far away the nearest car park large enough to accommodate the necessary vehicles.

Or would could be pragmatic and look at authorising it in certain places with clear signage and where appropriate street markings as well.
 

Tetchytyke

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Or would could be pragmatic and look at authorising it in certain places with clear signage and where appropriate street markings as well.

I'm all in favour of pragmatism, as in London- it's allowed where safe and clearly marked, just nowhere else.

I don't really mind pavement parking. What I mind is having to walk in the road with my baby because some halfwit has blocked the path,often leaving enough room for someone on foot to squeeze by but not enough for pram or wheelchairs. I do also mind broken paving stones, as I've badly injured myself before on them, but we can strengthen pavements to support vehicles where parking is allowed.

As I've said all along, it's banned in London except where specifically authorised, and that works for all concerned.

We have been able to park half on while leaving space for others.

As I've said higher up, I'm in favour of allowing it, as in London, where safe and where the pavement is wide enough. I don't know where you live, obviously but my experience of West Yorkshire is that narrow roads and narrow pavements go together. In that case drivers either get to block the road or block the path, and neither is safe.

Only choice would be to turn a farmers field into a car park

That may not be a bad idea. It's what they did in Dent because, as anyone who's been there knows, there's no other choice because of the medieval streets.
 
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miami

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Only choice would be to turn a farmers field into a car park

Excellent idea. The rental value of farmers fields isn't a lot. I'm a parish councillor, we spend £900 a year renting some space to provide about 90 car park spaces for the village (parish hall, church, school, and of course anyone who can't find space in their driveway).
 

ainsworth74

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As I've said all along, it's banned in London except where specifically authorised, and that works for all concerned.
Works for me!


Excellent idea. The rental value of farmers fields isn't a lot. I'm a parish councillor, we spend £900 a year renting some space to provide about 90 car park spaces for the village (parish hall, church, school, and of course anyone who can't find space in their driveway).
Is it paved and lighted though? I would suggest you'd need to at least provide some amenities.
 

The Ham

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So if they work in an area without public transport and the roads are too full to park elsewhere, it's not going to happen.

I know this is a pro rail and public transport site, even you know they won't run at 5am or right up to industrial estates or ever at all, a car is the only viable option.

No a car is not the only option, it the only option which many consider but that doesn't make it the only option.

First up the e-bike which allows the user to pedal at a sedate pace and get where they are going with little effort (it's entirely possible to use them with full assist and so be like a motorbike just with a lower top speed).

Of that is too slow and/or the distance too far then there's motorbikes, such take up a lot less space when parked up.

Either would, if more people used them, reduce the need for quite so much land to be used for parking. In that you can fit at least 4 in the space of a single parked car.

Yes you are more at risk when using them than in a car, but often because car drivers aren't used to them and so forget that they are there. If more people considered them then chances are the risk wouldn't be all that much worse.

Yes neither are good for getting lots of stuff about, but relatively few people need that for their work and with the rise of online shopping that's becoming less of an issue for more people.

A terraced street would then be able to have parked cars on one side and motorbikes on the other and still house at least the same number of vehicles.

There's even some terraced streets where a motorbike would be able to be parked in the small front gardens where a there wouldn't be sufficient space to park a car.

Anyway some cars exist to take children to and from school, some where that distance is less than 600m (as is the case for one car near where I live).

I've spent the vast majority of my life in a household with one car, yes it means compromises. However they are fairly limited, but can often be worked around with some planning.

As a child my dad would car share to get to/from work and the days he drive to work it was a mile walk each way to school.

(Just picking up something from some back in this thread, if a child is more than 2 miles from their nearest suitable school whilst under 8 or more than 3 once they are 8 then the local education authority must provide free transport to the child, be that bus or taxi).

My children regularly walk/scoot/cycle as their main mode of transport for that day, including in all weathers and (in winter) when it's dark (with lights on their scooters/bikes) in the early evening. My eldest isn't 10 yet and my youngest isn't 3.

Yes the complain at times, but by not having a second car it frees up a significant amount of money to allow us to do other things (the average cost of a car, including purchase costs it's over £3,000/year - yes it's possible to get it lower than that as that's how averages work, however few actually know the true cost of running their car each year).

As to getting wet, that rarely is an issue. Partly as we have decent coats and partly as whilst there's a fair number of days where it rains is mostly light and quite often limited to part of the day (which may mean we miss being out in our) with the number of days that it's very heavy rain and we're out in it being only about 6 to 10 times a year.

I challenge you to record when it's actually very wet when you're traveling and you're likely to find a similar pattern. In some locations where is wetter it might be 20 times, but given that you go to work ~225 days a year (assuming a 5 day working week) that's not all that many.
 

bluenoxid

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I'm all in favour of pragmatism, as in London- it's allowed where safe and clearly marked, just nowhere else.

My problem is that pragmatism is in short supply in some councils and we are 45+ years further on from the London implementation with higher levels of car ownership.
 

Tetchytyke

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My problem is that pragmatism is in short supply in some councils

They're democratically accountable though, so if you bend enough councillors' ears it will be fine. Same with adaptations to allow pavement parking- residents who need it will demand it.
 

Vespa

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I challenge you to record when it's actually very wet when you're traveling and you're likely to find a similar pattern. In some locations where is wetter it might be 20 times, but given that you go to work ~225 days a year (assuming a 5 day working week) that's not all that many.

Not just the wet, you got the cold, fog and wind, that's on top of careless drivers, you are more vulnerable on a bike.

With a family it's a non starter, cars is an absolute necessity for some, no anti car pro bike or green transport activists is going to change that.

Reducing parking is only going to shift the problem elsewhere and hurt the low income bracket who have no option more than the rich in their detached house 4 car space drive.
 

bluenoxid

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They're democratically accountable though, so if you bend enough councillors' ears it will be fine. Same with adaptations to allow pavement parking- residents who need it will demand it.
My councillors are a different political hue to the councillors running the local authority. For reasons that I just won’t be able to explain, the money will run out for sensible adaptations because we don’t vote for the right hue.

If I still live in the area, I have some ideas to create the appropriate levels of action to get the funding that we need.
 

bluenoxid

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The same applies to prospective councillors!

IME one hue will promote cars and one will promote buses...
The hue that runs the local authority is unlikely to present an effective opposition in my ward for at least five years. Personally, I think an independent candidate will be the most effective opposition if the current crop of councillors struggle

Around here the red hue tries to build roads and the blue hue opposes them because usually the new roads are planned to be put through the blue hue wards. Red hue promotes various proposals of public transport, whilst blue hue quietly supports public transport knowing that they will be called out for having no plan if they oppose public transport and road building. Neither hue likes compromising parking or loading bays.
 

Meerkat

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Terraced houses are ideal for bike facilities and public transport as they are high density and generally inner suburbia. And if people wanting the best of both worlds are forced out if they want to keep their multiple cars then more people who can’t afford/don’t want cars will move in and form a virtuous circle.
 

bluenoxid

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Terraced houses are ideal for bike facilities and public transport as they are high density and generally inner suburbia. And if people wanting the best of both worlds are forced out if they want to keep their multiple cars then more people who can’t afford/don’t want cars will move in and form a virtuous circle.

The problem is where I store my bike. I have no front garden and live in a genuine 2 up, 2 down. Unlike other terraces I have experienced, the kitchen has not been pushed out into the back garden for any of the properties on my streets

Ample public bike storage becomes a council responsibility who will be pressured to invest money in parking spaces rather than bike sheds

I foresee a vicious circle where local residents lose time and money searching for parking spaces in their area. This locks them into terraces as the price differential between terraces and semis with driveways/ample on street parking increases.
 

py_megapixel

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One thing that would ease the situation significantly would be as follows.

If you live in a home without a parking space, and have absolutely no viable alternative but to add to the congestion on our roads by commuting in a car - please buy a sensibly sized one!

It is much easier to squeeze past a Ford Fiesta, for example, than one of those enormous American-style SUVs or trucks, or a people carrier.

Just as you buy smaller trousers if your waistline becomes smaller, you should buy a smaller car if your available parking space becomes smaller!
 

Ianno87

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One thing that would ease the situation significantly would be as follows.

If you live in a home without a parking space, and have absolutely no viable alternative but to add to the congestion on our roads by commuting in a car - please buy a sensibly sized one!

It is much easier to squeeze past a Ford Fiesta, for example, than one of those enormous American-style SUVs or trucks, or a people carrier.

Just as you buy smaller trousers if your waistline becomes smaller, you should buy a smaller car if your available parking space becomes smaller!

Having had to upgrade to a VW Touran due to an expanding family, I miss my Toyota Yaris for how easy it was to get in tiny spaces!
 

AM9

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One thing that would ease the situation significantly would be as follows.

If you live in a home without a parking space, and have absolutely no viable alternative but to add to the congestion on our roads by commuting in a car - please buy a sensibly sized one!

It is much easier to squeeze past a Ford Fiesta, for example, than one of those enormous American-style SUVs or trucks, or a people carrier.

Just as you buy smaller trousers if your waistline becomes smaller, you should buy a smaller car if your available parking space becomes smaller!
I think a better comparison would be for less clothes if you have less storage space. The problem is that much of the decision on the physical size of vehicles choosen centres around ego.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The problem is where I store my bike. I have no front garden and live in a genuine 2 up, 2 down. Unlike other terraces I have experienced, the kitchen has not been pushed out into the back garden for any of the properties on my streets

Ample public bike storage becomes a council responsibility who will be pressured to invest money in parking spaces rather than bike sheds

I foresee a vicious circle where local residents lose time and money searching for parking spaces in their area. This locks them into terraces as the price differential between terraces and semis with driveways/ample on street parking increases.
There are tens of thousands of terraced houses in greater London where there is no useable garden and little pavement. Their residents just get on without their pavement parking.
 

The Ham

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Not just the wet, you got the cold, fog and wind, that's on top of careless drivers, you are more vulnerable on a bike.

With a family it's a non starter, cars is an absolute necessity for some, no anti car pro bike or green transport activists is going to change that.

Reducing parking is only going to shift the problem elsewhere and hurt the low income bracket who have no option more than the rich in their detached house 4 car space drive.

A car maybe essential (although some would argue that it isn't) with a family, however rarely are two cars essential.

Yes it means chances to the way you do things, but not essential.

I can safely say that because that's what we do as a family of 5.

Yes it limits where I can work, but having fairly recently moved jobs so that I can walk to work (rather than using rail to get to/from work, with my job prior to that requiring me to cycle to/from work) it's certainly possible.

Before it's said that I live in a town/city so of course that's possible, that's not the case, my current job is somewhere with a population of <9,000 in the last cences with the cycling job in the next visage over with a population of about 1/2 that and I design roads (so not exactly the biggest of industries to work in).

Anyway, even if it does impact on income the fact that not having a second car is fairly costly and (with a family this is also true) you can reduce your childcare costs if you can do school drop off before the working day. Then there's the tax which you would be paying on that income and so many could afford a pay cut of £2,000-£5,000 and not actually have any less money to spend.

The problem is that many would rather be paid £25,000 than £23,000 rather than looking at their disposal income values, which may actual be more with the lower paid job if they didn't need a car.
 

Bletchleyite

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Terraced houses are ideal for bike facilities and public transport as they are high density and generally inner suburbia. And if people wanting the best of both worlds are forced out if they want to keep their multiple cars then more people who can’t afford/don’t want cars will move in and form a virtuous circle.

Meanwhile, in the real world...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It is much easier to squeeze past a Ford Fiesta, for example, than one of those enormous American-style SUVs or trucks, or a people carrier.

Most British MPVs and SUVs are the equivalent car stretched vertically, for instance a Ford Kuga is basically a vertically stretched Focus, and thus takes up no more road space than a Focus. The EcoSport is the same for the Fiesta. So the anti-SUV thing is misplaced in this context, as an SUV[1] of a given road space size is more likely to be suitable for a user's needs than the same road space size of "regular" car. That is, I own a Kuga at present, but if SUVs were banned it'd be a Mondeo, which is about 2 foot longer.

So for terraced streets, SUVs and MPVs should be encouraged, not discouraged. Even the Smart Fortwo takes an MPV form factor to achieve its short length!

[1] I don't mean the massive American ones, but people only tend to have those huge pick-ups for work purposes, there's only one non-pickup US style SUV that was ever on sale in the UK any more and isn't any more (the Nissan Pathfinder), and not many owners of Range Rovers will live in 2-up 2-down terraces, other than the few people who own old ones as enthusiast vehicles.
 
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miami

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Is it paved and lighted though? I would suggest you'd need to at least provide some amenities.

It's a hard surface. Paved, with strategic potholes to discourage boy racers.

4 lights.

The problem is where I store my bike

Park it on the road.

There's even some terraced streets where a motorbike would be able to be parked in the small front gardens

To be fair this driver has tried to park in his garden

1599206757100.jpeg
(having crashed into the garden, demolishing a wall and window, and having the car half in the garden, half over the pavement)
 
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Meerkat

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Most British MPVs and SUVs are the equivalent car stretched vertically, for instance a Ford Kuga is basically a vertically stretched Focus, and thus takes up no more road space than a Focus. The EcoSport is the same for the Fiesta. So the anti-SUV thing is misplaced in this context, as an SUV[1] of a given road space size is more likely to be suitable for a user's needs than the same road space size of "regular" car. That is, I own a Kuga at present, but if SUVs were banned it'd be a Mondeo, which is about 2 foot longer.
How big is your family?
A current Focus is only six inches shorter than a Ford Sierra, which used to be a perfectly adequate family car - in fact many families managed with the early Ford Escorts, and families manage with current Fiestas (current Fiesta is the same length as a mk1 Escort).
We really need a CityCar classification and gradually move most street parking to CityCar only.
 

Bletchleyite

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How big is your family?

It's more about how big I am (if you've met me you will know what I mean; small low cars are not an option), and about the fact that when I drive it is mostly to shift "stuff" - if travelling light public transport, walking or cycling is normally my choice, and will return to being so once the mask thing goes away.

There have been exceptions in the past - my first car was a Vauxhall Agila (same as the Suzuki Wagon R+) which was very short in length but also high (about 6' I think) and very capacious. Unfortunately they replaced it with a more "car like expericence" which then became no longer an option. Similarly the "car like dashboards" provided on the likes of Citroen Berlingos and Ford Tourneo Couriers (which basically have the Fiesta cockpit) make them also not an option - if I'm going to drive a small car, it really needs to be more like a small van to fit me in, i.e. a non-contoured traditional dash and a near-horizontal steering wheel.

Basically if it's small and designed to drive like a car I won't physically be able to drive it in most cases, or if I can it'll be like Clarkson cramming himself into some tiny sports car. And with my second DVT being treated at present...just no.

Thinking on, the Citroen C3 Picasso might do (and is slightly, but not much, smaller than the Kuga). Though I briefly drove my parents' Vauxhall Mokka (to "shunt" it around a campsite) and could barely fit in that at all.

So overall you'd be unsurprised that my view is that cars won't go away and we need to provide for them properly. Go to Germany and every block of flats will have proper underground parking. Given that a row of small terraces is basically a block of flats lying on its side, we need that here too. Just accept that almost every adult will have a car, provide for it properly (including EV charging), because that's a fact and it will not be changing however much anti-car people shout. Public transport then needs to be geared up to sell to those people properly - so it needs to be better than the car. One bus an hour via every estate and trying to stop people owning cars simply won't cut it, like it or not car ownership will not go away.
 
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Meerkat

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It's more about how big I am (if you've met me you will know what I mean; small low cars are not an option), and about the fact that when I drive it is mostly to shift "stuff" - if travelling light public transport, walking or cycling is normally my choice.

There have been exceptions in the past - my first car was a Vauxhall Agila (same as the Suzuki Wagon R+) which was very short in length but also high (about 6' I think) and very capacious. Unfortunately they replaced it with a more "car like expericence" which then became no longer an option. Similarly the "car like dashboards" provided on the likes of Citroen Berlingos and Ford Tourneo Couriers make them also not an option - if I'm going to drive a small car, it really needs to be more like a small van to fit me in, i.e. a non-contoured traditional dash and a near-horizontal steering wheel.
I am 6’ 3” so no midget! Superminis tend to be more upright - always had more space in my Fiestas than in my dad’s bigger saloons. My sister’s Fiat 500 was amazingly cavernous inside (small dashboard!) for such a small car.
Maybe we need to go back to when town dwellers hired cars to go on holiday etc.
With all the delivery networks now maybe one should start a luggage delivery service - you relax on the train or drive your little car there and the luggage is waiting for you!
 

ainsworth74

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It's a hard surface. Paved, with strategic potholes to discourage boy racers.

4 lights.

"Strategic potholes" :lol:

Well colour me impressed if you've managed that lot for £900pa! And providing more parking in convenient places may well be part of the solution.

Though, personally, thinking of the streets where I live it would be perfectly possible to allow for parking partially on the pavement whilst leaving the road clear for traffic (and in particular larger vehicles, slowing down cars is a bonus of people parking on the road as far as I'm concerned!) and, importantly, still leave enough space for pedestrians (in particular wheelchair users).
 

Bletchleyite

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I am 6’ 3” so no midget! Superminis tend to be more upright - always had more space in my Fiestas than in my dad’s bigger saloons. My sister’s Fiat 500 was amazingly cavernous inside (small dashboard!) for such a small car.

I'm about the same height but I'm also no waif, but based on discussions about railway seating it has a lot less to do with simple height and a lot more to do with proportions. A long upper leg is the most "nuisance measurement", and because my legs look like those of your average rugby player they don't easily cram in places. And as I said now I'm on my second DVT I am now making a rule - I will not be cramming myself in any mode of transport any more, it's not worth it for my health - so I'll need to say "if there's no exit row available on the flight I'll have to choose another flight", and I think First Class on the train will have to be on the agenda far more.

Maybe we need to go back to when town dwellers hired cars to go on holiday etc.

If car hire was easier and cheaper I'd consider not owning. That is, get my phone out, a couple of taps on an app and one shows up at my house, and I can know exactly what model I'm getting. (That's the main reason I very rarely hire - I need to know what model I'm getting to know I can drive it comfortably or at all - even the precise model can make a difference, as sometimes the budget model won't have an adjustable steering wheel, and odds on I won't be comfortable in any car that does not). I also object to being charged an extra day because the drop-off location is closed.

The car club model might work but only if there are enough vehicles nearby to guarantee I will get one when I want one.

Every time I've looked at hire it's either been too expensive, too inconvenient regarding pickup/dropoff locations or I could only specify to the level of "small, medium, large, MPV or SUV".

With all the delivery networks now maybe one should start a luggage delivery service - you relax on the train or drive your little car there and the luggage is waiting for you!

There are many problems with that, not least because I'm an outdoorsy person and so am likely to be going to the middle of nowhere, but also...would you trust Yodel or Hermes to show up with your stuff undamaged on time?
 

Mojo

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They're democratically accountable though, so if you bend enough councillors' ears it will be fine. Same with adaptations to allow pavement parking- residents who need it will demand it.
Indeed, if it is outlawed nationally, then the car-owning majority that want it, alongside the councillors and others who are probably in favour of it.

I posted earlier in this thread in March about the process my London borough has when it comes to allowing it, that is, residents get together and submit a petition to the council, officers come out and measure the pavement width, and if, after allowing pavement parking, there is still a width of 1.5 metres available, they will price up the cost of lines and signs.

Now not all councils are as good as mine, but it isn’t a very difficult process.
 

Meerkat

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would you trust Yodel or Hermes to show up with your stuff undamaged on time?
No problem, your rucksack will be in the bin at the back of the car park at the bottom of the mountain!
The luggage thing was more for hotel/chalet holidays. The railway did ‘send your luggage ahead’ back in the day didn’t it?
Of course gold standard would be the hire car turning up at the station with your luggage in the boot!
There really should be more effort put into getting hire cars at stations - I reckon a lot of people would be interested in a Fiat 500 waiting as the train comes in, so you can pootle round the area without the long drive.
 
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