Paris to Milan

[Gadget88]

https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/high-speed/thello-plans-open-access-milan-paris-hs-service/

THELLO, a subsidiary of Italian national passenger operator Trenitalia, is seeking approval from the French Rail Regulator Arafer to operate two high-speed service per day between Milan, Turin, Lyon and Paris starting in June 2020.

6 hours 45 rather than over 7 this will be good news since this journey done in 4 hours is another decade away?

 

[Alfonso]

Last time I took the Paris Milan tgv it was an hour late. Seeing as I'd left Bristol Temple Meads very early in the morning to get the Eurostar to Paris, an extra few minutes here or there don't make much difference

 

[AlbertBeale]

Since SCNF TGVs already do this 3 times a day (OK, taking a few minutes longer), and when I've used them they haven't been filled anywhere near capacity, and advance fares have been £40-ish, then I wonder how much of a market there will be for such a large increase in seats on the route - unless Thello do something especially appealing. But what?
And as for the 4-hour journey being a decade away - having encountered some of the Italian activists who don't want their part of the Alps having a high-speed line carved through, I wouldn't bet on getting TGV speeds from Turin to and through a tunnel into France in even a decade. Though a bit of speeding up on the French side might happen, even though the routing and engineering to do so is surely more challenging and expensive than on the Italian side (the eastern part of the latter, at least); I say this given the greater willingness of the French authorities to plough through opposition over such things, and the fact that the opposition to the line on the French side seems weaker (most campagning in that region seems to relate to opposing new road schemes to take more lorries through the Alps.)

 

[Alfonso]

Since SCNF TGVs already do this 3 times a day (OK, taking a few minutes longer), and when I've used them they haven't been filled anywhere near capacity, and advance fares have been £40-ish, then I wonder how much of a market there will be for such a large increase in seats on the route - unless Thello do something especially appealing. But what?
And as for the 4-hour journey being a decade away - having encountered some of the Italian activists who don't want their part of the Alps having a high-speed line carved through, I wouldn't bet on getting TGV speeds from Turin to and through a tunnel into France in even a decade. Though a bit of speeding up on the French side might happen, even though the routing and engineering to do so is surely more challenging and expensive than on the Italian side (the eastern part of the latter, at least); I say this given the greater willingness of the French authorities to plough through opposition over such things, and the fact that the opposition to the line on the French side seems weaker (most campagning in that region seems to relate to opposing new road schemes to take more lorries through the Alps.)

Agreed...the 10 year or thereabouts timescale is only going to happen if absolutely nothing goes wrong politically, technically,socially, economically. I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Iskra]

Since SCNF TGVs already do this 3 times a day (OK, taking a few minutes longer), and when I've used them they haven't been filled anywhere near capacity, and advance fares have been £40-ish, then I wonder how much of a market there will be for such a large increase in seats on the route - unless Thello do something especially appealing. But what?
And as for the 4-hour journey being a decade away - having encountered some of the Italian activists who don't want their part of the Alps having a high-speed line carved through, I wouldn't bet on getting TGV speeds from Turin to and through a tunnel into France in even a decade. Though a bit of speeding up on the French side might happen, even though the routing and engineering to do so is surely more challenging and expensive than on the Italian side (the eastern part of the latter, at least); I say this given the greater willingness of the French authorities to plough through opposition over such things, and the fact that the opposition to the line on the French side seems weaker (most campagning in that region seems to relate to opposing new road schemes to take more lorries through the Alps.)

I got a 1st class advance for about £40 on that TGV last year, but the train was very busy. Every seat was taken and most used multiple times.

I'm guessing that most people doing Milan/Turin-Paris would fly though.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I got a 1st class advance for about £40 on that TGV last year, but the train was very busy. Every seat was taken and most used multiple times.

I'm guessing that most people doing Milan/Turin-Paris would fly though.

Interesting - I guess the loading might be quite seasonal, and maybe different at different times of the week. I've used it a few times over the years and it's been reasonably well patronised, but never exactly chokka when I've been on it.

I'd imagine it would be easier to fill more trains on that route if the lower fares were available without having to commit months in advance - that's always my biggest bugbear in terms of being able to afford to travel by rail, in Britain and in some other parts of Europe.

If the proposed THELLO service had more affordable tickets available near the date of travel, then that might well mean they could get a lot of patronage. Otherwise, I'm not sure what it is they would do to fill double the capacity on that route. Unless, perhaps, there's a major ongoing increase in the proportion of people choosing to travel by rail? That ought to improve services and bring prices down for everyone.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Additional point from the quoted article: the new services will use the high speed line between Turin/Milan, unlike the current SNCF services which use the classic line as they're not fitted with the equipment for ERTMS.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Additional point from the quoted article: the new services will use the high speed line between Turin/Milan, unlike the current SNCF services which use the classic line as they're not fitted with the equipment for ERTMS.

Aha - that would save half an hour or so - I was forgetting what route the existing service took between Milan and Turin (last time I used the route I was just coming back from Turin; and I remember the Paris-Milan service doesn't stop between Milan and Turin, so had forgotten the route). However, if speed is of the essence, from Paris to Milan you can currently switch from the existing train to a domestic high-speed train at Turin and save the half hour that way. (The connection is probably fairly reliable, since I presume both would be using the same through platform at Torino PS.)

Is there any idea which Milan station would be used for the new service? The current Paris-Milan ones use Milano PG - less useful for many onward connections than Milano C. (Current domestic high-speed service from Turin vary - some go to Milano PG and some to Milano C.) Of course, for some onward destinations, coming from Paris you can make the change at Turin anyway - and for any high-speed services, and to head east rather than south on classic routes, you wouldn't need to change stations there. Also, changing at Turin rather than Milano C is a less unpleasant experience; the last couple of times I've used Milano C it's been absolutely heaving, and a battle to get to the right platform quickly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Porta Garibaldi and Centrale are close to being right next to each other, so it's not as important as you'd think. A bit like Euston and St Pancras, which are much closer together than most people think.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=milano centrale#map=15/45.4871/9.1991

 

[AlbertBeale]

Porta Garibaldi and Centrale are close to being right next to each other, so it's not as important as you'd think. A bit like Euston and St Pancras, which are much closer together than most people think.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=milano centrale#map=15/45.4871/9.1991

Well - I've always found the Milan change to be a quarter of an hour's walk at the absolute minimum - if you know the way and don't have a lot of luggage! - or 2 stops on the metro. So yes, not that bad, but still a faff if you're laden and on a long journey. And when I encourage people to go to Europe by rail, I find a big deterrent for many of them is if they have to change between stations in a big city. (After all, Paris Nord to Paris Gare de Lyon on the RER can feel like a scene out of Bladerunner at times - I prefer the 65 bus myself!)

 

[Gadget88]

I read today this project which will cut journey times down to 4 hours isn’t going to be ready until 2030 ten years away!

It mentioned missing out Paris if they ran through channel tunnel.

 

[SHD]

FWIW the Paris bus network has been thoroughly redesigned in April and the Gare du Nord - Gare du Lyon itinerary is now run by route 91 (which has been prolonged from Bastille to Gare du Nord). Route 91 is operated by bigger vehicles than the former 65 (which was ditched in the redesign).

 

[AlbertBeale]

FWIW the Paris bus network has been thoroughly redesigned in April and the Gare du Nord - Gare du Lyon itinerary is now run by route 91 (which has been prolonged from Bastille to Gare du Nord). Route 91 is operated by bigger vehicles than the former 65 (which was ditched in the redesign).

Thanks - useful to know, since I wouldn't have thought to get a new Paris bus map before going there next time... (Though at least Paris still has bus maps - unlike London; I do think some of the reduction in bus use in London is because TfL make it harder and harder to use them!)

 

[leytongabriel]

Thanks - useful to know, since I wouldn't have thought to get a new Paris bus map before going there next time... (Though at least Paris still has bus maps - unlike London; I do think some of the reduction in bus use in London is because TfL make it harder and harder to use them!)

Yes - but finding the bus stop at Gare du Nord is no fun as the 91 starts from the miserable bus station tucked away behind the suburban side of the station and doesn't seem to stop in the street near the main exit as the old bus did.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Yes - but finding the bus stop at Gare du Nord is no fun as the 91 starts from the miserable bus station tucked away behind the suburban side of the station and doesn't seem to stop in the street near the main exit as the old bus did.

Though I'm sure there's a side entrance/exit on that side (the east side) of the station, which should lead more or less to the bus stop. But it's certainly a grottier place than the Rue de Saint-Quentin (?) in front of the station where the 65 went from.

 

[Railperf]

Connection at Turin between the Frecciarossa and TGV services is pretty easy and usually the same platform. By the time you take into account the wait between exiting a TGV and boarding a Frecciarossa, the time saving is not worth switching trains for. After all, if you really wanted to save time, you would fly in the first place. I much prefer the Frecciarossa train interior to the TGV which is looking a bit tired. I don't know why SNCF haven't bothered introducing ERTMS compatible TGV's onto this route by now. It is crying out for them> But I note SNCF are recruiting drivers for the Paris to Milan route - so maybe there are plans to up their game now that Thello are taking an interest with a superior train and journey time!

Link to the story that SNCF are seeking new drivers is here ... https://www.ferrovie.info/index.php...cf-voyages-italia-cerca-macchinisti-per-i-tgv