Paris terrorist attacks this evening 13/11/15

[Darandio]

All attackers are now believed to be dead.

Suggestions that now might not be the case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34825080

Several Kalashnikovs have been found in an abandoned car believed to have been used by some of the Paris attackers, French judicial sources say.

The black Seat car was found in the eastern Paris suburb of Montreuil on Sunday, suggesting some of the attackers got away.

Earlier, the first of the seven dead attackers was named as Ismail Mostefai. Six people close to him are in custody.

France is in three days of mourning for the 129 people killed in the attacks.

A special service for the families of the victims, the 350 people who were wounded, and the other survivors will be held at Paris's Notre Dame Cathedral later on Sunday.

 

[Johnuk123]

Junker has just said that nothing has occurred that should mean the European Union needs to change it's attitude to accepting all migrants that can get into Europe.

I think that other parts of the EU will force him to regret that because it's not sustainable in any way.

 

[miami]

Junker has just said that nothing has occurred that should mean the European Union needs to change it's attitude to accepting all migrants that can get into Europe.

I think that other parts of the EU will force him to regret that because it's not sustainable in any way.

Whether the attitude should change due to sheer numbers is a valid question, I don't see why Friday changes the arguments though, other than confirming there are still plenty of EU citizens willing to commit atrocities and these events don't need refugees to make them happen.

What Friday should do is lead to a reduction in security theatre on things like Eurostar - after all why bother checking someone at st Pancras going to Brussels when you don't if they're going to Edinburgh? Even if you did you simply move the target to tesco.

Jerusalem does have metal detectors and limited bag searches on entry to aome shops and restaurants, but are we advocating that?

How about racial profiling? Perhaps we could mark all Muslims with a number on their arm and use that to determine who to be scared of?

 

[Johnuk123]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34826438

This weekend Angela Merkel was comparing the crisis to the challenges of German re-unification. But uniting the German people is very different from accepting maybe a million refugees from different cultures.
The head of the BfV, the German domestic intelligence agency, Hans-Georg Maassen, said that "we observe that Islamists are specifically approaching refugees in the reception centres. We already know of more than 100 cases".
In the short term Angela Merkel will dig in, resistant to the pressures building around her.
She will also know that if Germany closes its borders the impact will be felt in country after country stretching back into the Western Balkans.
There would be a back-up of refugees and tensions between countries could rise dangerously. So the German chancellor, for the time being, will try to ride out a crisis where she is seen as having lost control.
Secondly, there is the impact on free movement of people as guaranteed by the Schengen agreement.
Already this core principle, this jewel in the European crown, is seen at risk.

Unusually downbeat article from the BBC which is this countries foremost pro EU media outlet by miles.

 

[Busaholic]

Appalling though the number of deaths was, it might be that there
could have been many more but for the presence of President Hollande and a German minister at the Stade. Yesterday (Saturday) lunchtime, an unnamed French journalist was quoted on a BBC news programme as saying that the level of security almost everywhere in Paris had fallen back to pre- Charlie Hebdo levels, and that it was probably only because of Hollande, and therefore a hyper-aggressive armed police presence for him, that would have prevented or deterred them gaining access to the stadium, a scenario that seems all too plausible to me.

On the subject of any escaping terrorists, the French have named a man they believe escaped in the black Seat car. Needless to say, he should not be approached by the public.

 

[richw]

The French have carried out a massive air strike on ISIS bases and targets this evening. The Russians have also joined in with some smaller air strikes.

 

[Minilad]

The French have carried out a massive air strike on ISIS bases and targets this evening. The Russians have also joined in with some smaller air strikes.

And so the vicious cycle continues

 

[Antman]

And so the vicious cycle continues

It's war, what exactly do you expect to happen?

 

[Minilad]

It's exactly what I expected to happen. But it will also continue the vicious cycle as it will give ISIS the justification to carry out more atrocities in "retaliation"

 

[Antman]

Appalling though the number of deaths was, it might be that there
could have been many more but for the presence of President Hollande and a German minister at the Stade. Yesterday (Saturday) lunchtime, an unnamed French journalist was quoted on a BBC news programme as saying that the level of security almost everywhere in Paris had fallen back to pre- Charlie Hebdo levels, and that it was probably only because of Hollande, and therefore a hyper-aggressive armed police presence for him, that would have prevented or deterred them gaining access to the stadium, a scenario that seems all too plausible to me.

On the subject of any escaping terrorists, the French have named a man they believe escaped in the black Seat car. Needless to say, he should not be approached by the public.

It was reported that the suicide bombers had tried to get into the stadium, presumably that was their intended target?

 

[ainsworth74]

It's exactly what I expected to happen. But it will also continue the vicious cycle as it will give ISIS the justification to carry out more atrocities in "retaliation"

I'm not sure they need a justification...

 

[Minilad]

No they probably don't . But whenever these events occur the main driving factor is always said to be as a response to "The West" and something they have done

 

[Tim R-T-C]

That is what makes the extremist attacks so difficult for Westerners to understand - they often lack an exact meaning or purpose. We knew exactly what the IRA, Basque terrorists etc. wanted.

Based on the purported IS statement on the attacks, as well as 'revenge' for French involvement in airstrikes, they were due to the 'decadence' of Paris, a city of immorality and vice - the attack on the rock concert was due to its paganism.

So why now, why Paris, why that concert in particular? There is no statement warning of future attacks or particularly actions the French could take to avoid them.


What makes it even more complex is that most of the attacks for which IS have claimed credit, seem to be independently and locally planned, particularly the smaller attacks, such as the attempted TGV shooting.

There is no real co-ordination between different groups and many attacks seem to be carried out by 'supporters' or just 'fans' of IS, so even if direct action is taken in Syria and Iraq, there is no reason to believe that attacks like these might not continue from hardline jihadists.

Indeed, there is the possibility that without the option of going to Syria to fight, prospective Jihadists might be more willing to carry out attacks in Europe.

 

[ainsworth74]

No they probably don't . But whenever these events occur the main driving factor is always said to be as a response to "The West" and something they have done

There primary purpose, however, is to try and draw us into committing ground troops which their doctrine believes will usher in the apocalypse in a great climatic battle between Christians (effectively the West) and Muslims at Dabiq. The attacks on Paris, the bombing of airlines and their other atrocities are all part of that plan.

Bombing Daesh might help them to recruit (though they seemed to be managing fine even before we started seriously bombing them) more believers but it isn't a main driving factor in their attacks against us.

 

[Crossover]

I'm late to the discussion having been away for a couple of days so just catching up with the forum a bit

Thoughts with those involved, either directly or indirectly

Slightly surreal to think that at the time the news was breaking on this, myself and Starmill were walking along the upstairs concourse at St Pancras, noting the Eurostar sets in the platform, passing some time before heading for the Lowland Sleeper. There were a few security people about on the controlled side of the station, but this in itself didn't appear unusual

 

[Abpj17]

Whether the attitude should change due to sheer numbers is a valid question, I don't see why Friday changes the arguments though, other than confirming there are still plenty of EU citizens willing to commit atrocities and these events don't need refugees to make them happen.

What Friday should do is lead to a reduction in security theatre on things like Eurostar - after all why bother checking someone at st Pancras going to Brussels when you don't if they're going to Edinburgh? Even if you did you simply move the target to tesco.

Jerusalem does have metal detectors and limited bag searches on entry to aome shops and restaurants, but are we advocating that?

How about racial profiling? Perhaps we could mark all Muslims with a number on their arm and use that to determine who to be scared of?

It's standard for museums, theatres/arenas and some business in London to conduct bag searches/scans (although for the O2 I often wonder if that simply so you have to buy drinks once you are inside). I'm almost 40, I'm not sure I've ever known a time for London to be on low alert. It hasn't extended really to shops and restaurants - but these tend to have shop windows. The threats come from those on the street as well...

 

[Haydn1971]

I recall visiting the U.S. war graves at Normandy a few years back, I was quite taken back by the metal detectors and the security, a solider with an assault type weapon.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The bag searches all seem rather moot when the concert attackers were apparently able to just force their way in.

I'm not sure what was different at Stade du France. I think the attackers had bomb vests only and not guns so they couldn't get into the stadium.

 

[richw]

It was reported that the suicide bombers had tried to get into the stadium, presumably that was their intended target?

Reported that security found the device when frisking the male who held match day tickets at entrance. The male proceeded to blow himself up there and then.

 

[Johnuk123]

It's exactly what I expected to happen. But it will also continue the vicious cycle as it will give ISIS the justification to carry out more atrocities in "retaliation"

When people say we should never retaliate in any way as it makes things worse do they then think that allowing this death cult to carry on unhindered will somehow improve matters.

Leaving them to recruit and expand untouched is really not going to help is it.

 

[Minilad]

When people say we should never retaliate in any way as it makes things worse do they then think that allowing this death cult to carry on unhindered will somehow improve matters.

Leaving them to recruit and expand untouched is really not going to help is it.

Which is why I made my original post about the vicious cycle continuing

 

[LowLevel]

It is very vicious, very unfortunate and very necessary. They've declared war on the world and they're spreading. They won't stop at the local area they're in. Let them carry on and eventually they will be on our doorstep, we've gotten into a mess and now we're committed. The only answer is to kill them without mercy wherever they're found. I think Putin is a despot in many ways but he's bang on with this. Assad and Co are extremely unpleasant local problems. In the long term IS are a threat to everyone. No taking prisoners and letting them radicalise others in there, just get rid of them cleanly and quickly.

That includes the likes of various evil so called clerics that have taken to shooting their gobs off over here. Next time you get a group of masked people shouting about death to the UK and so on in London, just return the complement and get rid. I'm no longer interested in them.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

It doesn't help that we don't know what IS actually want.

If they want to stop France from getting involved in Syria and attacking IS targets, then stopping their involvement might temporarily spare the French, but would give the impression that bombing attacks will succeed in deterring Western countries, leaving the UK and other coalition partners to be subject to attacks in the future. Increasing French involvement might show to IS that bomb attacks in Paris won't deter them, or might encourage them to make bigger attacks.

As has been mentioned above in this thread however, some view the attacks as an attempt to encourage a full-on ground conflict in the Middle East which will start the foretold apocalypse (rather like trying to kick start the 'Book of Revelations'). While this sounds crazy, it is a well documented part of IS's long term thinking - they are Qu'ran literalists. All of their actions to date have followed carefully planned actions based on the writings and all of their beliefs are based on the literal interpretation of the Qu'ran. In which case if the French cut back their involvement, then IS might carry out more attacks to try and encourage them to get more involved again.

The statement released by IS also mentions France as a capital of decadence, so even without military activity, the attacks might have happened. The Charlie Hebdo attacks earlier this year for example were completely unrelated to any French military intervention.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the long term IS are a threat to everyone. No taking prisoners and letting them radicalise others in there, just get rid of them cleanly and quickly.

ISIL have no qualms whatsoever with the genocide of those they view as unbelievers from even before the time of Islam in the Middle East, as was proved by their attempts to kill as many of the Yazidi believers.

 

[Murph]

If they want to stop France from getting involved in Syria and attacking IS targets, then stopping their involvement might temporarily spare the French, but would give the impression that bombing attacks will succeed in deterring Western countries, leaving the UK and other coalition partners to be subject to attacks in the future. Increasing French involvement might show to IS that bomb attacks in Paris won't deter them, or might encourage them to make bigger attacks.

It seems that is now a moot point, as France has just declared war on IS.

BBC: Paris attacks: France 'at war' says President Hollande

France "is at war" after Friday's attacks on Paris, President Francois Hollande has told a rare joint sitting of both houses of parliament.

He said he would table a bill to extend the state of emergency declared after the attacks for three months.

He said France was committed to "not just containing, but destroying" the so-called Islamic State (IS) group.

IS says it carried out the attacks on bars, restaurants, a concert hall and a stadium in which 129 people died.

Mr Hollande said he would meet the presidents of the US and Russia in the coming days.

 

[Mag_seven]

The time has come to stop pussyfooting about with these people. France appears to have started by rounding up and questioning rather than monitoring. Hopefully the deportations (if any of those rounded up are not French)will start soon. Enough is enough.

 

[Busaholic]

Interesting to hear Ken Livingstone on the radio last night saying that ISIS could only be destroyed by ground forces, which he advocated, his only proviso being that it had to be under UN auspices, and should include troops from China, Russia and South Africa. I have a feeling he won't achieve his wish, then. Rather different from Jeremy Corbyn's views though.

 

[miami]

Reported that security found the device when frisking the male who held match day tickets at entrance. The male proceeded to blow himself up there and then.

Obviously we need security checks before entering a queue for security checks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems that is now a moot point, as France has just declared war on IS.

BBC: Paris attacks: France 'at war' says President Hollande

After 9/11 everyone was really backing the US. They went marching off to bomb Afghanistan back to the stone age in search for a man who was actually living in Pakistan, and they convieniently ignored the fact it was Saudi Arabia that provided the hijackers. They then decided to invade Iraq, which had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. When France said "err, hang on a second" they decided to stop sell French Fries in the cafeteria, and sold Freedom Fries instead.

So forgive me for not piling in unconditional support to a wronged nation.

The way you stop young men from blowing themselves up is to give them a reason not to blow themselves up.

 

[Robertj21a]

It doesn't help that we don't know what IS actually want.

.

I thought that it was crystal clear. The problem (for us) is that we're expecting to unearth a logical reason for their actions.

They are terrorists, intent on getting their own view of life accepted by others. To achieve their aims they will terrorise. End of !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously we need security checks before entering a queue for security

You jest, but it is a good reason other than customer satisfaction for ensuring queues are short.