Ollie29
Member
What are people's thoughts on printed timetables on paper?
Do we need them still, do you think?
A thought for discussion?
Do we need them still, do you think?
A thought for discussion?
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Paper Timetables - do we still need them?
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RedKing
Member
As opposed to printed timetables on a slab of concrete?
Ollie29
Member
Well, you see, with a lot of industries now going more digital, perhaps it's an option?
The great advantage of printed timetables (for everyone except the operator) is that they provide clear evidence of the timetable that was advertised. None of this "timetable of the day" nonsense. Anything digital can be altered with greater or lesser ease depending on exactly who is wanting to alter what - something already printed on paper and distributed in bulk is much harder to suppress. Many years ago on a Bank Holiday Monday, BR had to fork out a taxi fare from Temple Meads to Parkway for me because I could wave the timetable under someone's nose and say "where does it say BHX for this train" (a connecting dmu into the Swansea - York train at Parkway, IIRC)? - in these days of digital timetables I doubt I could provide proof if I hadn't previously obtained an itinerary. As with the map vs Sat-Nav debate, digital planners are certainly useful - but a "proper" timetable (whether printed or no) has its uses and if I had to choose only one, it would be the traditional timetable every time.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Is ‘reading timetables’, as distinct from following a digitally-created bespoke itinerary, even a general societal skill these days?
The fundamental problem with classic broadsheet/column timetables is that they contain a vast amount of ‘irrelevant’ information about trains earlier or later than the ones that a passenger wants, calling times at stations in which the traveller has no interest and often trains that don’t even call at the stations that the passenger is interested in.
The fundamental problem with classic broadsheet/column timetables is that they contain a vast amount of ‘irrelevant’ information about trains earlier or later than the ones that a passenger wants, calling times at stations in which the traveller has no interest and often trains that don’t even call at the stations that the passenger is interested in.
RedKing
Member
Do you mean leaflet style timetables or the large printed timetables at stations?
The cost and time to produce and print surely must outweigh the benefits?
Particularly in the current railway world where there is an abundance of engineering works. If you were to print anything close to an accurate timetable for the Stalybridge - Huddersfield stopping service for example, you'd probably need about 50 different versions for the year.
Plus the many variations caused by a train being re-timed 100 miles away on a random Friday morning..
The cost and time to produce and print surely must outweigh the benefits?
Particularly in the current railway world where there is an abundance of engineering works. If you were to print anything close to an accurate timetable for the Stalybridge - Huddersfield stopping service for example, you'd probably need about 50 different versions for the year.
Plus the many variations caused by a train being re-timed 100 miles away on a random Friday morning..
yoyothehobo
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They are still needed, for stations with infrequent services, or a limited number of destinations. Otherwise they become a mass of barely readable data and can be very confusing.
While there is clearly a need to retime trains when there are major engineering works (in which case these should also be published in "fixed" form [note I don't say they have to be printed] long in advance - if maintaining a standard timetable means the alterations have to be for 4 weeks rather than 5 then so be it - at least the travelling public can know from one day to the next when their train runs), this pretence that a train never existed and has therefore not been cancelled will only become more pernicious and widespread if there isn't the proof that it did and was.
Those who are happy to rely on SatNavs, Journey Planners, Amazon recommendations etc rather than making a bit of an effort to read a map or timetable or visit a bookshop are perfectly free to do so. There are plenty of situations where I'm perfectly happy to do the same - but I have no wish to surrender my independence in the way that relying entirely on these tools would mean.
Most passengers don't rely on a printed timetable. There are PDF ones available on most if not all TOC sites, and in any case it isn't how the vast majority of the public plans their journeys; we are now into the age of journey planning apps for that.
If I need a timetable I just go to Realtimetrains and filter by destination etc.
If I need a timetable I just go to Realtimetrains and filter by destination etc.
Joey Beauchamp
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An even bigger problem is having to flick through to a timetable on a completely different page when making connections. There's multiple examples but a journey from The Cambrian Coast to Aberystwyth changing at Dovey Junction / Machynlleth is one that came to mind.
I'd plan this by using Realtimetrains and clicking on the interchange station, which would then show me all the services around that time. Much easier, especially when making multiple connections.
(I should add I would love to have a national timetable book like they used to produce, but I'd use it more for pleasure than planning!)
raildemon
New Member
bring back timetable lithographs
Paper timetables make it much easier to plot routes and cross-reference where and when to change trains. To do it on an app you'd need to do multiple searches and it would be much more fiddly. Plus a paper timetable is a welcome safety blanket for when your phone dies, or you have no signal, or the app stops working, or the power goes down etc.
Ollie29
Member
What about if you're out and lose signal on your phone or have no battery, but the timetable for that day is amended and isn't printed in a paper format
RedKing
Member
Websites like RealTimeTrains can be good for plotting routes and changes.
I'd argue digital is a good safety net for forgetting to bring the printed timetable, or leaving it on a previous train, or even against damage if you use the paper version multiple times. More likely to remember your phone than a piece of paper.
yoyothehobo
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Are you kidding? It just took me 3 seconds on something i carry with me at all times.
A paper timetable is only worthwhile if you have it with you and doesnt tell you the current status of any trains.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
This isn’t true at all. Take a journey from Leicester to Leeds for example. A paper timetable isn’t going to show that a change at Derby or Sheffield is likely to involve schlepping over a bridge whereas Chesterfield is likely to be the same platform. Realtimetains can make this very clear.
By and large, no. TVMs provide this information nowadays as well as apps etc. they’re always more likely to be up to date than printed timetables too, especially when engineering work is in play.
There will always be exceptions and we shouldn’t fully digitise. But the cost doesn’t add up for what was common practice 20 years ago.
There will always be exceptions and we shouldn’t fully digitise. But the cost doesn’t add up for what was common practice 20 years ago.
They don't really exist anymore anyway.
Cross Country published some new ones after they rejigged the timetable, and some community rail partnerships produce their own, but that's it.
I started using the railways too late for paper timetables, but I do enjoy flicking through old timetables to plan journeys that might've been 30-40 years ago!
I personally find them useful, but in a world where everyone can have a journey planner on their phone, there's not much need.
Cross Country published some new ones after they rejigged the timetable, and some community rail partnerships produce their own, but that's it.
I started using the railways too late for paper timetables, but I do enjoy flicking through old timetables to plan journeys that might've been 30-40 years ago!
I personally find them useful, but in a world where everyone can have a journey planner on their phone, there's not much need.
Everyone can only have a journey planner on their phone if they have a smartphone. I don't and neither do lots of older folk. Age UK has recently sponsored a petition concerning the digital isolation of the elderly. It's a serious issue. When I was commuting into London in the late nineties there were little matchbox sized booklets which told you all you needed to know about that route though I accept that doesn't count as a journey planner.
The journey planners the general public use probably won't tell them that!
YorksLad12
Established Member
From memory, when the new Northern franchise started WYPTE dropped their own timetable booklets in favour of Northern’s.
Leeds-Sheffield services are now spread over different booklets instead of being in one place. Not helpful, and the last time I looked there was a service option missing. I get that it was a cost-saving measure but it doesn’t help the passenger much.
Leeds-Sheffield services are now spread over different booklets instead of being in one place. Not helpful, and the last time I looked there was a service option missing. I get that it was a cost-saving measure but it doesn’t help the passenger much.
Nothing says 'dumbing down' more than journey planners.
I don't mind not having physical copies if the economics no longer stack up, but printed timetables in electronic formats are absolutely essential for understanding the structure of the timetable, not just for short-distance commuter service but also for frequent intercity journeys so you know that 'my train is at 05 and 35 past the hour'.
Every passenger should be encouraged to read a map, read a series of timetables, plan a route and buy a ticket without reliance on the journey planner. Overuse of journey planners is how the likes LNER can pull a fast one, hide the Off Peak fares and only offer higher priced Advance fares.
I don't mind not having physical copies if the economics no longer stack up, but printed timetables in electronic formats are absolutely essential for understanding the structure of the timetable, not just for short-distance commuter service but also for frequent intercity journeys so you know that 'my train is at 05 and 35 past the hour'.
Every passenger should be encouraged to read a map, read a series of timetables, plan a route and buy a ticket without reliance on the journey planner. Overuse of journey planners is how the likes LNER can pull a fast one, hide the Off Peak fares and only offer higher priced Advance fares.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Why should a passenger be expected to do all that when a system can do it for them. Imagine trying to get a typical passenger to understand the routing guide.
The pocket timetable tool is very good for that https://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/pockettimetable/search?pbadv=t#pbadv I imagine they will probably still have the PDF versions of the timetables since they're probably just generated automatically.
I only said encouraged.
Journey planners are still a relatively recent thing. Until recently station ticket machines did not have a journey planner step. If I'm just after an Off Peak or Anytime ticket at King's Cross I always use the GTR ticket machines as the LNER ones forces you through a journey planner and take twice as long. The typical passenger did until very recently buy tickets without journey planners.
I'm going to sound like a grumpy old man (I'm not even that old) - it's the same thing with overuse of sat nav - I'm still one of those who learn the route and read road signs and lane markings when driving and making educated improvisations where necessary.
The increase in navigating through life based on drip-fed information instead of developing a structured knowledge base is not a good thing.
This is one of the aspects of British railway we should be proud of. TOC and PTE (or whatever they are called nowadays) sites still overwhelmingly offer printed timetable formats. I'm a bit annoyed at TfL for not doing so - information transparency shouldn't be left to the goodness of the heart of Robert Munster.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Tube timetables for most lines are on bustimes.org (some of them don't work). And the working timetables are probably in an FOI request somewhere.
While I probably could drive all the way from my home to pretty much anywhere else by just looking at a map before setting off, going to the right motorway junction and following signs from there, the ability to have an estimated time, route options and traffic updates is very useful.
Yes working timetables are on the TfL website (initially a product of an FOI request I believe). TfL don't publish bus timetables, and the bus stop panel timetables are simply sh!te - they think 'about every 13-16 minutes' with a off-peak journey time based on 5am in the morning is a good enough information summary, and have journey planners do the rest.
These things are useful as guides. It's the full reliance on them, or in some case such things being the only option that I have issues with.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Once again bustimes.org have all the answers there, but TfL don't entirely run the buses to a solid timetable, don't they just delay buses if they get too close to each other?
Bustimes is a third party source. Transport authorities should see information presentation as part of their core product offering. Also I expect there to be transparency in having a plan and deviating from that plan - say that's all part of the intended method of operation. I object to this attitude of 'we'll always deviate from the plan anyway so we won't bother telling you what the plan is'.
Also anything more than a 12-minute headway ought to be regulated to the timetable and not to frequency. I find TfL's definition of 'high frequency' to be too much on the liberal side.
Similarly tube frequencies. Period frequencies should be clearly published on the website and at stations. They should tell passengers the planned service level on the Piccadilly line is 24tph in peak times so passengers know what the deviation from plan is.
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