Paper tickets vs E-tickets

[lightbulb]

It's a bit obscure as to how you do it, but yes, you can disable location history on an Android phone (which is what they use for pushing advertising). I have disabled it on mine.

Even if disabled nothing stops the authorities tracking you via "cell locate" on any mobile, even yours, in any case. They can if they wish get a quite accurate position based on 3 cell towers your phone can see. So if this is of concern to you you should get rid of even your basic phone, and probably not drive a car either due to ANPR.

And I'd advise declining the 60+ Oyster, for that matter, and paying cash only. They can track that as you tap in and out too!

(Or maybe be a little less paranoid )

But as regards e-tickets, a paper ticket can actually be an e-ticket. I don't think the railway is likely to go to mobile phone based ticketing only. You would be able to buy and print one yourself from your computer, or a TVM will probably print one for you too, it just will have a barcode and not a magstripe.

The thing I wouldn't be surprised to see is them stopping taking cash within 10-20 years, but we shall see. Provided you have a debit card, no problem there really.

Indeed: tracking for advertising purposes is what I'm particularly concerned with, rather than tracking by the authorities. I don't drive, so ANPR isn't an issue.

 

[banjo125]

Just out of interest, if I'm then expected to invest in a device in order to travel are the companies going to reduce ticket costs, or are they going to make more profits?

 

[Haywain]

Just out of interest, if I'm then expected to invest in a device in order to travel are the companies going to reduce ticket costs, or are they going to make more profits?

I think you mean prices, rather than costs. And the answer is likely to be no. As for profits, more is very ambitious for most companies - it's more a case of losing very slightly less.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The result? Another reason to create GBR.

I don't think GBR will be able to change what TS does with Scotrail-priced tickets if it so chooses.

 

[island]

Just out of interest, if I'm then expected to invest in a device in order to travel are the companies going to reduce ticket costs, or are they going to make more profits?

Nobody’s expecting you to invest in anything.

If you want to buy a ticket at the station that option isn’t going away.

 

[mmh]

After yesterday's experience, I am still curious why there are still so many people using paper tickets.

You don't want to risk missing an hourly train queuing for an TVM and finding how the heck you can use it, right?

In my last train trip yesterday, I was still at home 9 minutes before the train departed, and my home is located 9 minutes walking distance from the train station. By the time I ran to the train station, the train was already at the platform, and my e-ticket was on my phone.

I use paper tickets because:

- Of my 3 local stations, 2 are unstaffed with no ticket machines. At the staffed station, the ticket window staff are friendly, quick and have on occasion saved me money. It's an enjoyable way to buy a ticket, and there's rarely a queue. If the window's closed, there is a TVM which I find simple and quick to use, particularly since it was updated to take contactless card payment. At the unstaffed stations, the guard is more adept at buying tickets than I am - it's his job! All three ways are quicker and easier than me than using my unreliable phone with its poor battery life.

I may be "forced" to partially switch to online tickets, as it'd be significantly cheaper if I used their carnet style tickets for at least one of my regular journeys. Unfortunately, they only offer this on their app. I have their ITSO smartcard, I don't know why they can't offer the tickets on that medium. Equipment, presumably, I don't recall seeing any sort of reader at any of the stations. I suspect the only product they can sell on a smartcard is a season ticket!

And surely, while people are insistent that "all" e-tickets can be printed, these carnet tickets cannot be?

 

[Haywain]

If you want to buy a ticket at the station that option isn’t going away.

But it will get more difficult because fewer people do it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I voted for e-tickets.
I've just totted up my ticketing for 21 short (3-5 day) rail trips across Europe since 2012.
Of 82 rail tickets bought, 55 were e-tickets (PDFs), 14 were bought at booking offices and 13 from ATMs.
e-tickets remove all the panic about queueing up at a window which might not recognise my English or attempts at the local language, or the dialogue at ATMs.
The same must apply to visitors to the UK negotiating our ticket offices and ATMs, not to mention the minefield of multiple retail web sites all doing the same thing in a slightly different way.

Some of the non-e-ticket purchases (in Spain, mainly) were because of the need to buy a senior railcard from a station, its number being required to purchase tickets.
In Hungary, and oddly on a Swiss-Italy ticket, I initially booked online but had to collect the physical tickets via a local desk/ATM.

I print off the PDFs for security, but am now quite happy to show the barcode electronically - that's all they want to see.
I've never had any problems on board with e-tickets, except in Hungary, where they didn't recognise the validity of the ticket (not the e-ticket element of it).

You get the odd case of having to buy at a ticket office (eg at Ventimiglia for a French TER service), or at Girona where local tickets are only issued for that day.
The eastern European web sites are also sometimes limited in what tickets they can sell (eg only for trains that have reservations).
I normally also need a day transport ticket for cities I stay at en route, and more of them are now selling e-tickets for that (and other tourist activities) as well.

At home, I usually start my GB travel with Merseyrail, which is the very opposite of an e-enabled TOC.
So it's a prehistoric transaction over the counter (not even an ATM option).

 

[Bletchleyite]

At home, I usually start my GB travel with Merseyrail, which is the very opposite of an e-enabled TOC.
So it's a prehistoric transaction over the counter (not even an ATM option).

I really don't understand Merseyrail and why it opposes modern ticketing technology. Staffed ticket offices at every station for the full period of service must be insanely costly and is totally unnecessary. They don't even provide much of a public safety benefit, as they are mostly remote from the platforms - a security guard would provide that better.

 

[mmh]

I really don't understand Merseyrail and why it opposes modern ticketing technology. Staffed ticket offices at every station for the full period of service must be insanely costly and is totally unnecessary. They don't even provide much of a public safety benefit, as they are mostly remote from the platforms - a security guard would provide that better.

It allows them to have kept toilets open at every one of their stations - many are opened by the staff on request. No doubt many of the stations would see them closed on unstaffing. That's quite admirable - is there any other non-Inter City TOC which has toilets at all of its stations?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It allows them to have kept toilets open at every one of their stations - many are opened by the staff on request. No doubt many of the stations would see them closed on unstaffing. That's quite admirable - is there any other non-Inter City TOC which has toilets at all of its stations?

There are not public toilets at every Merseyrail station. Maybe about half of them at best, possibly not even that?

Merseyrail is different regarding toilets, anyway, as it doesn't have them on board.

 

[mmh]

There are not public toilets at every Merseyrail station. Maybe about half of them at best, possibly not even that?

Merseyrail is different regarding toilets, anyway, as it doesn't have them on board.

I was wrong. Every Merseyrail station I've ever used does, but there are 14 which don't, out of 68 - so pretty good, but nowhere near all! Point remains though, most of them would be gone if the stations were unstaffed, and as you say, on a network with no on-board toilets... No wait, Little Sutton doesn't have toilets, and I've used there numerous times. Clearly my memory isn't as good as it could be!

And if you have staff at stations to look after your toilets because your trains don't have them, you may as well have them selling tickets. Perhaps in the age of the e-ticket (and the Walrus / Metro card) they don't sell very many though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was wrong. Every Merseyrail station I've ever used does, but there are 14 which don't, out of 68 - so pretty good, but nowhere near all! Point remains though, most of them would be gone if the stations were unstaffed, and as you say, on a network with no on-board toilets... No wait, Little Sutton doesn't have toilets, and I've used there numerous times. Clearly my memory isn't as good as it could be!

I sit corrected on how many - I thought it was fewer than that. Though some e.g. Town Green have had them installed more recently, and Ormskirk only gained public toilets at the recent-ish refurb, before that they were there but staff only, and the toilet block at Aughton Park still is staff only. I seem to recall the ones at Town Green can be remotely released using the help point, or at least a notice to that effect on the door.

And if you have staff at stations to look after your toilets because your trains don't have them, you may as well have them selling tickets. Perhaps in the age of the e-ticket (and the Walrus / Metro card) they don't sell very many though!

I wonder if having a security guard out and about on the platforms would provide more benefit. They could also watch over the toilets.

 

[Wallsendmag]

What makes people think that Ticket offices won’t move to Smartcards and eTickets , we’ve introduced one of them and are piloting the second one. There isn’t a best format, a mixture of smart fulfilment options is the the only answer.

 

[lightbulb]

What makes people think that Ticket offices won’t move to Smartcards and eTickets , we’ve introduced one of them and are piloting the second one. There isn’t a best format, a mixture of smart fulfilment options is the the only answer.

I would feel happier to move from paper tickets to Smartcards if they were to work like Oyster, with the ability to set a railcard discount, and no requirement to have an online account or (smart)phone.

 

[Haywain]

I would feel happier to move from paper tickets to Smartcards if they were to work like Oyster, with the ability to set a railcard discount, and no requirement to have an online account or (smart)phone.

Sounds as though you'll like smartcards then. However, in the main, they simply hold tickets that you buy online or at a counter or TVM and any discount is dependant on what you buy, not on the smartcard.

 

[HST274]

Used my first e ticket and it went smoothly with no problems at the barrier. May use them more in the future but paper is still my favourite
Robert

 

[planetf1]

e-ticket BY FAR for me. I virtually never have cash. went to atm once in 2020, not at all in 2021. Use apple pay etc wherever I can, QR codes for other events/tickets where possible, including bus, train etc.

Now if only the railcard+ticket could be combined on a single app/scan .... !

 

[mikeg]

To settle the paper Vs e-ticket ,on station Vs off station retailing question why not follow the lead of some railways (Germany iirc does this?) and install a TVM that prints e-tickets? The cost of this has got to be much less than that of ccst tickets . It could even be as simple as reliable printer and some decent paper, in a box with a PED and basic computer attached. For a small increase in cost it could scan the ticket before releasing it to check it's printed properly, something that would put my mind at rest. It would be much friendlier to occasional railway users and would likely be revenue positive compared to existing arrangements or indeed relying solely on off station retailing or smart cards which deters occasional, incidental users. Another option could be to follow the Dutch lead where print at home/m-tickets are free, smart cards are available for a small cost and single use tickets (albeit on a single use smart card rather than an e ticket) attract a small fixed fee, with the exception it seems of the Holland travel ticket.

But seriously if we're getting rid of ticket offices and CCSTs we first need to address integrated ticketing often being CCST only and make rovers and rangers available online or at least at TVMs. Again the Dutch manage this, as do the Germans. Unfortunately @Haywain along with other industry types believe this is somehow the passenger's problem.

 

[island]

German booking offices also (in my experience anyway) print normal tickets on a standard office laser printer (albeit onto security paper with a holographic strip across the bottom).

 

[Bletchleyite]

German booking offices also (in my experience anyway) print normal tickets on a standard office laser printer (albeit onto security paper with a holographic strip across the bottom).

Yep, that's a thought I had - way, way cheaper than dedicated printers - just have them print normal e-tickets onto A4.

 

[HST274]

Yesterday I bought a ticket from the ticket office and got one of the paper bar code tickets. With the barcode failing first try (and maybe second and the man letting me through) I have to say I think it is the worst out of credit card tickets and E-tickets especially with the size not fitting well anywhere and easy to mistake for one of the many scrap pieces of paper like receipts in my pockets. I have added it to the poll however in case anyone prefers that most. One benefit is that I guess it is recyclable?

 

[Wallsendmag]

The name you're looking for is PRT Paper Roll Tickets

Yesterday I bought a ticket from the ticket office and got one of the paper bar code tickets. With the barcode failing first try (and maybe second and the man letting me through) I have to say I think it is the worst out of credit card tickets and E-tickets especially with the size not fitting well anywhere and easy to mistake for one of the many scrap pieces of paper like receipts in my pockets. I have added it to the poll however in case anyone prefers that most. One benefit is that I guess it is recyclable?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The name you're looking for is PRT Paper Bog Roll Tickets.

Fixed that for you!

 

[HST274]

Fixed that for you!

The name you're looking for is PRT Paper Roll Tickets Bog roll tickets

My mistake

 

[mikeg]

The barcode not working is an issue that can lead to difficulties. I've had it happen before in the Chiltern app, it failed to decrypt because TPE hadn't kept their machines up to date with the latest keys. The guard griefed me over it a bit, but came to the conclusion as it was in the app it couldn't be fake so passed it in the end. Have to say I've not experienced it since but it's made me a bit wary. I still use e-tickets but am always careful to be able to show them in the app.

 

[XAM2175]

I have to say I think it is the worst out of credit card tickets and E-tickets especially with the size not fitting well anywhere and easy to mistake for one of the many scrap pieces of paper like receipts in my pockets. I have added it to the poll however in case anyone prefers that most. One benefit is that I guess it is recyclable?

There's nothing wrong with the PRT concept; they just need to be made a more sensible size.

 

[zero]

The barcode not working is an issue that can lead to difficulties. I've had it happen before in the Chiltern app, it failed to decrypt because TPE hadn't kept their machines up to date with the latest keys. The guard griefed me over it a bit, but came to the conclusion as it was in the app it couldn't be fake so passed it in the end. Have to say I've not experienced it since but it's made me a bit wary. I still use e-tickets but am always careful to be able to show them in the app.

If you have to use a TOC app then you don't have an e-ticket?

I prefer etickets for short straightforward journeys, but for longer complex journeys with multiple tickets (some bought in advance and some not) I find it easier to have them separate from my phone.

It is easier to get out the correct CCST on the way to entry barriers (if necessary), leave it on the table on the train, and have it in my pocket while walking to exit barriers (if necessary) meaning I can do other things with my phone in the meantime, rather than having to find the correct PDF file out of several, and adjust my screen brightness, multiple times. Sometimes I might miss one of the files when loading them to my phone, meaning I need to navigate to my email while standing at the barriers etc

Obviously etickets can also be printed but this is harder mid-journey, and I would prefer to print them in the CC-size than on a big piece of paper.

 

[mikeg]

I did have an e ticket and had the pdf and that wouldn't scan either. I think you missed my point which was the guard would have no doubt accused me of having a fake ticket through no fault of my own had I not shown it in the app.

 

[Paul Kelly]

have only the most basic of mobile phones that does not even have the ability to send or receive text messages. This is a decision I took back in 2008 when purchasing my (still current) mobile phone, and is one which I have never yet regretted, as smartphones seem to have tracking built in, and as far as I understand it, this tracking cannot be disabled.

Same goes for your basic phone. If you don't want to be tracked then keep it switched off and only turn it on for emergencies (and bear in mind, that as soon as you've turned it on, you'll be broadcasting your location to the mobile phone networks).