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Paper tickets looking a bit retro

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Sm5

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So if you're happy with electronic discussion, why not an electronic ticket?
A conversation in the pub wont lead you to a criminal record if the battery goes flat, or youve not thoroughly researched pages of documentation on every permutation of ticket machine.

Also combined with the loss of a ticket selling agent, the onus has shifted from an expert selling tickets, to every passenger must be an expert on ticketing to ensure the right fare is purchased.

if ticketing was sold by the km, with a simple structure of discount fares.. then much of the risk would be mitigated.
 
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SussexSeagull

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You don't there's also an app, with tickets the card is like a carrier bag, products don't just magically appear in the bag you need to fill it.
Unless it has changed you used to have to buy the ticket then get it 'switched on' at a ticket machine before tapping in. Which seemed to be a long winded way of doing it.
 

Bletchleyite

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A conversation in the pub wont lead you to a criminal record if the battery goes flat, or youve not thoroughly researched pages of documentation on every permutation of ticket machine.

Also combined with the loss of a ticket selling agent, the onus has shifted from an expert selling tickets, to every passenger must be an expert on ticketing to ensure the right fare is purchased.

if ticketing was sold by the km, with a simple structure of discount fares.. then much of the risk would be mitigated.

There is nothing simpler than an Advance. It is valid on the trains printed on it.
 

12LDA28C

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Internal combustion engines are slated to be gone for standard consumer cars soon too as the government have announced a move to electric cars.

Where did I mention cars? New trains are still being built with diesel engines.

However, as regards motor vehicles, phasing out of cars with petrol/diesel engines is decades away and I don't believe the Government will come anywhere near achieving its own targets for electric vehicle ownership, or the 'net zero' white elephant for that matter.
 

Gaelan

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There is nothing simpler than an Advance. It is valid on the trains printed on it.
…unless there’s been disruption. In that case, if your train’s been cancelled or you missed it due to previous late running, you’re eligible to get the next train, but only if it’s operated by the same TOC. You may be able to get trains from another TOC, but this depends on ticket acceptance, the length of the delay, the discretion of several members of railway staff who may or may not agree with each other, and whether the TOC feels like following the law today. On the other hand, if your booked train is running late, you’re still expected to get that train, unless…
 

Bletchleyite

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…unless there’s been disruption. In that case, if your train’s been cancelled or you missed it due to previous late running, you’re eligible to get the next train, but only if it’s operated by the same TOC. You may be able to get trains from another TOC, but this depends on ticket acceptance, the length of the delay, the discretion of several members of railway staff who may or may not agree with each other, and whether the TOC feels like following the law today. On the other hand, if your booked train is running late, you’re still expected to get that train, unless…

Simpler would be requiring one to rebook.

Careful what you wish for.
 

island

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if ticketing was sold by the km, with a simple structure of discount fares.. then much of the risk would be mitigated.
That’s easy to say and very difficult to implement. Perhaps a thread is needed in the speculative forum.
 

Sm5

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There is nothing simpler than an Advance. It is valid on the trains printed on it.
Yet its still an issue.
However it may not be relevent, as its been an issue time immemorial, and isnt unique to rail either.

The issue is the mode used to accommodate the ticket.

A flat battery on my phone would not prevent me, or criminalise me for catching my flight, bus, ferry, cruise ship, cinema ticket …. Etc etc…
Most have a simple, rational back up plan. (Ie a printer on hand or an agent to fix it).

And most other industries have far less confusing ticketing options… does any other country have an equivalent of “London terminals”, which despite the wording,

i. doesnt apply to the terminus of every london bound train, you might be sat on and
ii. excludes some terminals based on your approach from a compass point bearing onto a geological act of the last ice age and
iii. expect every passenger regardless of race, sex, age, religion or nationality to be fully conversant in it, and those travelling with them and
iv. without a ticket agent to sell it to them ?

our ticketing system is way too complicated, even ticket staff are confused by it. Shifting the load further onto the customer, without simplfying it, and maintaining the punitive levels is irrational. Its just asking for pain and backlash.

Sure move to all phone ticketing, and close ticketing and machines, but have a “backup” plan, and make buying tickets simpler / less error prone Or with corrective options.

On another thread i’m opposed to tfl exiting day travelcards.. its so simple is virtually foolproof… we need more, not less of these simple solutions.
 
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Haywain

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Sure move to all phone ticketing, and close ticketing and machines,
How many times? Nobody has advocated this, and yet at the very mention of eTickets it seems to be the only thing you can focus on.
 

Sm5

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How many times? Nobody has advocated this, and yet at the very mention of eTickets it seems to be the only thing you can focus on.
In fairness its the connotation…

how many times have we heard of rumours of ticket office closures ?… its clear theres a short and a long term goal here.

My line, post covid is now unstaffed in the evenings. Change is like weeds.. it takes time to see it, by then its too late.
 

Haywain

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In fairness its the connotation…

how many times have we heard of rumours of ticket office closures ?… its clear theres a short and a long term goal here.

My line, post covid is now unstaffed in the evenings. Change is like weeds.. it takes time to see it, by then its too late.
The change - to buying online - has already happened. Trying to stop it now would be like Canute trying to stop the tide, which he knew could not be done. However, eTickets do not require a smartphone even though that is how the majority far prefer to use them.
 

AY1975

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Out of curiosity, I compared the Aztec code on a paper roll ticket I had to a CCST, and it physically fits fine - so it's just a question of whether you can fit it in with all the other information currently on the ticket.
Well the Rail Delivery Group (or maybe just certain train operators) did manage to reformat the CCST a few years ago to accommodate an Aztec code, but it seems quite a while since I last saw a CCST with one on.
 

Gaelan

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Well the Rail Delivery Group (or maybe just certain train operators) did manage to reformat the CCST a few years ago to accommodate an Aztec code, but it seems quite a while since I last saw a CCST with one on.
What I read from some other thread on here - sorry, didn't save the link - is that those Aztec codes were smaller than the ones on the eTickets (they had fewer outer rings of pixels around the central "pyramid" pattern), so couldn't carry enough data to be useful.
 

Wallsendmag

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What I read from some other thread on here - sorry, didn't save the link - is that those Aztec codes were smaller than the ones on the eTickets (they had fewer outer rings of pixels around the central "pyramid" pattern), so couldn't carry enough data to be useful.
GNER/NXEC/VTEC were afaik the only users of the type 11 barcode on CCST and they weren't read by anything useful. The barcodes used now are type 6.
 

AM9

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The Wheel is quite old technology, but we still use it.
Paper is the original IT medium, only invented around 2000 years ago, but still has plenty of life left in it. It's cheap to make, fully recyclable, and even the most frail human beings can carry a piece large enough to carry travel authorisation in the skimpiest of attire.
This attitude of constant change for change's sake can border on revisionism.
 

Bletchleyite

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Paper is the original IT medium, only invented around 2000 years ago, but still has plenty of life left in it. It's cheap to make, fully recyclable, and even the most frail human beings can carry a piece large enough to carry travel authorisation in the skimpiest of attire.

And near enough everyone under the age of about 30 (possibly 40) carries their mobile phone at all times, thus using it for other purposes makes sense.

This attitude of constant change for change's sake can border on revisionism.

E-tickets are not "change for change's sake". They eliminate any queueing at the departure station, for instance, so one can plan to arrive one minute before departure and still board (give or take some termini with an earlier platform closing time). Walking times are very, very consistent. In essence what they are is a "win win" - the operator saves money in externalising the costs of the sale, and the passenger doesn't have to stand in a queue.

And guess what? If you hate them, don't use them. Your paper ticket will be an e-ticket too, but so what? I've proposed that the railway is likely to stop taking cash at some point probably not within the next 10 years but probably within the next 20-30 alongside pretty much every other business, but nobody here is proposing a situation where the only way to use an unstaffed station would be to purchase a ticket on a mobile phone. I use e-tickets heavily and I'm not suggesting that either. It might be that the design of TVMs gets cheaper, or it might be that a local shop is appointed a ticket agent in preference to having one at all, or it might even be that because of the very low numbers wanting to do it it goes back to the guard doing it, but I just can't see any prospect of station ticket sales being abolished at all, and nor do I support such a prospect.
 

Deerfold

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Paper is the original IT medium, only invented around 2000 years ago, but still has plenty of life left in it. It's cheap to make, fully recyclable, and even the most frail human beings can carry a piece large enough to carry travel authorisation in the skimpiest of attire.
This attitude of constant change for change's sake can border on revisionism.
And you can put your e-ticket on that paper, if you choose to do that.
 

MrJeeves

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Also, not sure why the system is designed so when I buy a ticket on-line I have to still go to a ticker machine to enable it. Surely I should be able to just tap in and out?
Your first tap on a gateline will automatically add the "keyGo ticket" to your smartcard automatically. No need to use a ticket machine. You can also use any of the GTR apps (and likely any ITSO-writing-capable collection app).

ScotRail are issuing Advance tickets on ITSO as "Off Peak Single" (according to the ScotRail app and ScotRail TVMs) or "Super Off Peak Single" (according to the National Rail app).
Could you try scanning it with the Ecebs ticket scanner apps (on Apple and Android) and post some screenshots of the data it shows for the ticket, if you have one of these to hand?
 

XAM2175

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Ah I hadn't appreciated that as I've not had much experience of buying train tickets on the continent, thanks.
No worries. The standardisation has only occurred within the last decade anyway, most obviously for reasons of cost and economy of scale but also because it allows any operator to sell tickets with international validity from any printer.

It is a bit of a shame at the same time though, because it resulted in the discontinuation of some nice national designs, like SBB's lovely red mountains and blue sky arrangement:

mwst_neu.png
 

Ediswan

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Your first tap on a gateline will automatically add the "keyGo ticket" to your smartcard automatically. No need to use a ticket machine. You can also use any of the GTR apps (and likely any ITSO-writing-capable collection app).
There are two different systems in play here.

KeyGo is indeed added at a gate or validator. As far as I can tell, this is, and always had been, the only way to do it. Mine shows up on my card as a Flexismart Standard.

I believe @SussexSeagull was referring to a pre-purchased ticket. The instructions say you can use a TVM to load these (as well as validators and gates). Maybe those instructions are getting garbled.

Personally, I would probably choose to use a TVM rather than a gate to load a pre-purchased ticket, as that provides the opportunity to check the correct ticket has actually loaded. Can't comment on what validators are able to show, I rarely come across them.
 

MrJeeves

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I believe @SussexSeagull was referring to a pre-purchased ticket. The instructions say you can use a TVM to load these (as well as validators and gates). Maybe those instructions are getting garbled.
Ah yes, sorry. To be honest, I didn't think you could load tickets bought online at a TVM. I haven't seen the feature on GTR TVMs near me before.
 

paul1609

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And near enough everyone under the age of about 30 (possibly 40) carries their mobile phone at all times, thus using it for other purposes makes sense.
Id say it's a lot older than that. Ive just put Wifi in our village hall. I made the mistake of explaining to one pensioner how to connect with wifi calling (mobile signal isn't very good in the village) including ditching Tesco Mobile for Virgin Mobile. I should have arranged a commission deal for the amount of repeat business that i got.
 
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