Paper Bus Timetables: Is it the end?

[BenS123]

My local bus services are provided by Go South Coast (GSC), who are extremely keen on publishing paper timetable booklets, even going as far to deliver them to 180,000 households in the Bournemouth area, for example.

However, as we see a transition towards app based journey planning and timetables in an app on a smartphone, are these booklets needed any more? For example, the Winter 2022/23 morebus timetable tells you that you can plan journeys on the morebus app.

Various operators have very different stances on this, with Go South Coast being an operator firmly for paper booklets, and they do a great job at distributing them as practically every library and community centre in the area has a supply of morebus timetable books. However, some operators have just moved everything online and published no booklets.

 

[Gloster]

Southern Vectis is part of Go South Coast, I think, and also distributes plenty of books on the island, although it doesn’t go as far as sending them out to households. I personally would be less than happy if the information was only on line as, even though I am thoroughly cognisant with how to use a timetable, I find it easier to use a paper one, particularly if comparing options or using two tables. They are still going to be needed by plenty of people and, I suspect, such users are going to be disproportionately represented among bus users.

 

[Non Multi]

All together:
"IT'S ALL ONLINE!"
(© Fat Bus Bloke)

Pleased to say the local operator I use the most (Thames Valley) is still providing timetable booklets, and they currently have a good supply of new booklets on board their fleet at the moment. They're invaluable as a quick reference, that you can keep in your bag "just in case".

 

[PeterC]

Hardcopy publicity is still very effective as long as you make the effort to put it in front of your prospective customers. The app may be the primary source of information for established customers but you first need to convince people that you have something to offer to justify installing the app.

 

[alex397]

I don’t understand the approach of getting rid of all paper publicity, then saying it’s all available online.

The obvious negative is that there are plenty of people who are unable to use the internet, for a variety of reasons. That aside though, even people like me who are competent smartphone users, I sometimes prefer to use paper timetables.
Many apps, especially those from bus operators it seems, can be clunky, take a while to load and difficult to navigate. There are quite a few times when apps are not working - I have quite often seen Tweets from Arriva or Stagecoach advising that their app is down.
Apps also drain battery and data on phones.

Another point is that apps or websites don’t really advertise to potential users, unlike bus timetables in tourist information centres. Even post-Covid, plenty of organisations still provide leaflets advertising museums, wildlife parks and the like. Why not bus operators?
There is a lot of untapped potential for tourist use of bus routes, which is more important now in a time with a reduction of shoppers and commuters using buses.

I think the use of apps is a great positive, but it should be used alongside more traditional methods too.

 

[Soundwave]

Printed publicity has it's place and I think operators that have abandoned it are extremely short sighted. I've seen first hand how punters use the Southern Vectis books to plan trips while onboard the bus.

To me, it's an issue of where to find the publicity. Nottingham City Transport do an exceptional job in showing you in network maps where you can pick up a timetable. I can't think of any other operators that tells you where to find the publicity they produce.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Another point is that apps or websites don’t really advertise to potential users, unlike bus timetables in tourist information centres. Even post-Covid, plenty of organisations still provide leaflets advertising museums, wildlife parks and the like. Why not bus operators?
There is a lot of untapped potential for tourist use of bus routes, which is more important now in a time with a reduction of shoppers and commuters using buses.

Completely agree about putting the paper items away from buses in venues where you can potentially capture new customers. The industry often moans that it doesn’t have enough passengers but a significant part of it seems to dislike marketing to those who aren’t currently their customers. One innovation I saw earlier in the year was Travel West Midlands advertising on bill boards alongside the congested M6.

Bournemouth has always seemed a hot spot for good publicity provision, both Yellow Buses and Go South Coast produced good books for many years. Yellows as now no longer operating, so I think Go Ahead’s mail drop is a way of raising the profile of the enlarged network. Availability is also good off the bus, both tourist offices and several libraries carry copies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Printed publicity has it's place and I think operators that have abandoned it are extremely short sighted. I've seen first hand how punters use the Southern Vectis books to plan trips while onboard the bus.

I think on touristy networks it's particularly important. On networks that are primarily "local buses for local people" generally you know what your local route is and probably remember the timetable or know where to look for it online (or use bustimes.org which is excellent), so I'm less than convinced that Transport for Greater Manchester's single-route timetables they used to produce are that useful any more. Greater Manchester's bus network is mostly for locals, really - visitors are more likely to use train, tram or taxi. By contrast if you rock up on the Isle of Wight without a car, which you're quite likely to do as taking one over is extremely costly, just being able to pick up a booklet with a map and timetables and use that to plan on an unfamiliar network is quite useful. Similarly other touristy places like the Lakes. But even more so the IoW as it's very popular with older tourists who may be less tech savvy.

For London it's maybe a bit different, because (a) there's almost nowhere tourists go that the Tube doesn't, and (b) almost every route tourists are likely to want to use is very frequent. I do think, though, that not having via points on the front of London buses like they used to does make it harder for tourists to build up a picture of what goes where. But that's probably not as important as a partially sighted regular user being able to read the number and destination, hence showing only that in big font.

 

[geoffk]

Devon County Council has retained its series of six area timetable books when most local authorities have stopped theirs. They are available in libraries, Exeter bus station and St. David's station and no doubt elsewhere. GoAhead produce booklets covering Cornwall and the one I have for East Cornwall includes all operators. Stagecoach now produce nothing locally for their own services. I agree with the points made above about reaching non-users and especially tourists. Route maps are also important. Reading a timetable on a smart phone is not easy, especially if you're trying to plan a journey involving connections. I don't know how many operators or councils have any idea of the extra custom generated in return for the cost of printing etc.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

Not 'the end' for operators with a bit of enthusiasm and willing left in them.

James Freeman hosted a masterclass with Transdev's Alex Hornby (in the Youtube link below).
The whole thing is a very good watch, but skip to 17:52 if you want to hear Alex talk about printed material.

 

[Lynford1976]

Not 'the end' for operators with a bit of enthusiasm and willing left in them.

Roger French hosted a masterclass with Transdev's Alex Hornby (in the Youtube link below).
The whole thing is a very good watch, but skip to 17:52 if you want to hear Alex talk about printed material.

That's James Freeman hosting, not Roger French - but thank you for sharing this!

 

[daodao]

The real problem is transport operators who do not publish a timetable as such, even on the Internet, but merely have a journey planner that does not permit enquirers to see an overview of the service provided. Examples include most airlines, RENFE and AMTRAK. TfGM's timetables are not easy to find on their website and not available for tram services or certain bus routes. Printed bus timetables were withdrawn from TfGM enquiry offices with the onset of Covid.

 

[Man of Kent]

. Printed bus timetables were withdrawn from TfGM enquiry offices with the onset of Covid.

Well they are back in stock now at three from a sample of four TfGM offices last week. But the office in Piccadilly Gardens is no longer where it was - if indeed it has been replaced. I've no idea where to find a Witch Way timetable in central Manchester now - they were not available at Shudehill.

 

[Howardh]

Well they are back in stock now at three from a sample of four TfGM offices last week. But the office in Piccadilly Gardens is no longer where it was - if indeed it has been replaced. I've no idea where to find a Witch Way timetable in central Manchester now - they were not available at Shudehill.

Bolton interchange has a wall full of timetable booklets which seem to be well stocked. Doubt it would have the Witch timetable but next time I'll have a look.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

That's James Freeman hosting, not Roger French - but thank you for sharing this!

Apologies, I got their names mixed up.

 

[Tetchytyke]

TfGM's timetables are not easy to find on their website and not available for tram services or certain bus routes.

They're not that hard to find, just put the route number in here: https://tfgm.com/public-transport?q=43

Trams are a different one, no timetables but also "every 12 minutes all day every day" is pretty easy to remember. And you can check when the next tram is.

 

[daodao]

They're not that hard to find, just put the route number in here: https://tfgm.com/public-transport?q=43

Trams are a different one, no timetables but also "every 12 minutes all day every day" is pretty easy to remember. And you can check when the next tram is.

Actual TfGM timetables are not directly accessible from the obvious web address https://tfgm.com/bus/timetables but only from elsewhere on the TfGM site https://tfgm.com/public-transport/bus/routes

 

[Llandudno]

They're not that hard to find, just put the route number in here: https://tfgm.com/public-transport?q=43

Trams are a different one, no timetables but also "every 12 minutes all day every day" is pretty easy to remember. And you can check when the next tram is.

Yep, every 12 minutes is great, but late at night I would like to know the actual departure times of the trams rather than wait in the dark at a tram stop in a dodgy part of Greater Manchester…!

I think you can find actual tram times on a journey planner, but they take some finding?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep, every 12 minutes is great, but late at night I would like to know the actual departure times of the trams rather than wait in the dark at a tram stop in a dodgy part of Greater Manchester…!

I think you can find actual tram times on a journey planner, but they take some finding?

They've never published a timetable, and I too find it grossly annoying as you have to add 12 minutes to each journey in case you just miss one, plus another 12 if having to change. 5tph isn't enough not to want one. Only with very high frequencies like the Tube (10tph and higher) would I not want one. And even when I was using the Hamburg U-Bahn (12tph peak) I sort of used one - the time to leave home in time to just walk on the platform as the next train arrived was when you saw the previous one cross the bridge.

 

[Llandudno]

They've never published a timetable, and I too find it grossly annoying as you have to add 12 minutes to each journey in case you just miss one, plus another 12 if having to change. 5tph isn't enough not to want one. Only with very high frequencies like the Tube (10tph and higher) would I not want one. And even when I was using the Hamburg U-Bahn (12tph peak) I sort of used one - the time to leave home in time to just walk on the platform as the next train arrived was when you saw the previous one cross the bridge.

It’s particularly frustrating when deciding which time tram to use when trying to connect at Altrincham to the hourly Northern service towards Chester.

Not so bad during midweek day times as the trams are every 6 minutes, but not great in the evening on 12 minute headway.

 

[miklcct]

They've never published a timetable, and I too find it grossly annoying as you have to add 12 minutes to each journey in case you just miss one, plus another 12 if having to change. 5tph isn't enough not to want one. Only with very high frequencies like the Tube (10tph and higher) would I not want one. And even when I was using the Hamburg U-Bahn (12tph peak) I sort of used one - the time to leave home in time to just walk on the platform as the next train arrived was when you saw the previous one cross the bridge.

I normally don't use a timetable if trains run every 8 minutes of less, for example, London Overground.

On a route with 12-15 minute headway, a timetable is nice to have but I don't take the timetable into journey planning consideration apart from using headway / 2 to calculate expected waiting times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I normally don't use a timetable if trains run every 8 minutes of less, for example, London Overground.

On a route with 12-15 minute headway, a timetable is nice to have but I don't take the timetable into journey planning consideration apart from using headway / 2 to calculate expected waiting times.

That actually really surprises me given how you like to squeeze in as much as possible to your time.

I've always used a timetable for Merseyrail (4tph) for instance. I just remembered the times and left 8 minutes beforehand which was spot on to get a ticket and get to the platform just in time.

 

[GusB]

We are discussing bus timetables here - there are other sections of the forum for trams and trains. Please stay on topic.

 

[miklcct]

That actually really surprises me given how you like to squeeze in as much as possible to your time.

I've always used a timetable for Merseyrail (4tph) for instance. I just remembered the times and left 8 minutes beforehand which was spot on to get a ticket and get to the platform just in time.

Bus timetables in my view are for reference only, as buses can be affected by traffic and staff shortages that they may not run according to timetables, especially on a route with 15-minute headway of less.

It is usual for a bus route, which runs nominally on 12-minute headway, to become on 15-minute or 20-minute headway if there is staff shortage, or departure time adjusted if there are traffic issues preventing buses returning on time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==

It’s particularly frustrating when deciding which time tram to use when trying to connect at Altrincham to the hourly Northern service towards Chester.

Not so bad during midweek day times as the trams are every 6 minutes, but not great in the evening on 12 minute headway.

I'll just normally consider the waiting time of the hourly service to be half an hour for journey planning purpose, which will result in avoiding the route under most circumstances.

This is because, if I start my journey at random times, in the long run I will have to wait for half an hour for the service on average. A timetable is only useful if I know the time I need to travel to the exact minute. As long as the journey isn't time-critical, the headway is more important than the timetable itself.

 

[Andyh82]

Well they are back in stock now at three from a sample of four TfGM offices last week. But the office in Piccadilly Gardens is no longer where it was - if indeed it has been replaced. I've no idea where to find a Witch Way timetable in central Manchester now - they were not available at Shudehill.

I believe paper timetables have been withdrawn in two districts - Oldham is definitely one

But they still exist in other parts of Greater Manchester

Over the border in West Yorks, Metro seem to be just starting to bring back paper timetables - they are pared back basically just the timetable no front cover, pre-amble, adverts, back cover etc , and they only seem to exist so far in Leeds

 

[Paperyostrich]

First in Somerset still produce paper timetables and they are still very popular, in fact at our depot they have all been given out!

Helps that around these parts there are many stops that aren't posted by a flag or even have a timetable case attached so it's a good tool to quickly reference when a bus is due. Plus many places out here you'd be lucky to even get a signal

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Bus timetables in my view are for reference only, as buses can be affected by traffic and staff shortages that they may not run according to timetables, especially on a route with 15-minute headway of less.

Well yes... that's what they are for, aren't they? They're a statement of what is planned to occur!


I do prefer a timetable, whether it be online or printed; I understand that at a stop, a departure list is perhaps more appropriate. In touristy areas particularly, the ability to promote and publicise services is really beneficial. This is especially with tourists who are unfamiliar with the area and I noted how many passengers had them on when travelling on First's Coaster services in Dorset and Cornwall in the summer.

First West of England has now elected to stop producing timetables for its services. That might be ok for nominally high-frequency services like the 1/2 across Bristol but they really are missing a trick when you look at routes like the 376 to Wells.

Also, there's the question of how you distribute paper timetables. First Eastern Counties produce printed material for the Coastlink, Coastal Cabriolet and Excel (but not local routes?) and I was able to obtain leaflets on the buses themselves. The usual other outlets could be

• Libraries
• Train Stations
• Tourist or other information offices
• Those tourist destinations that you are also promoting within the leaflet

Also, in addition to the few travel shops that remain, perhaps a display stand (such as TrentBarton do in Belper) in unmanned offices... Quite a number of these offices are still used by the firms as welfare facilities anyhow so they're paying for them.

As I said in the Stagecoach heritage fleet discussion, it is easy to work out the cost of something but not the value (as the old line goes). I don't know about the value of a 1956 Leyland Titan at a bus rally in terms of promotion, but having some printed media to coexist with your digital outlets seems to be a reasonable investment.

 

[Ken H]

Well yes... that's what they are for, aren't they? They're a statement of what is planned to occur!


I do prefer a timetable, whether it be online or printed; I understand that at a stop, a departure list is perhaps more appropriate. In touristy areas particularly, the ability to promote and publicise services is really beneficial. This is especially with tourists who are unfamiliar with the area and I noted how many passengers had them on when travelling on First's Coaster services in Dorset and Cornwall in the summer.

First West of England has now elected to stop producing timetables for its services. That might be ok for nominally high-frequency services like the 1/2 across Bristol but they really are missing a trick when you look at routes like the 376 to Wells.

Also, there's the question of how you distribute paper timetables. First Eastern Counties produce printed material for the Coastlink, Coastal Cabriolet and Excel (but not local routes?) and I was able to obtain leaflets on the buses themselves. The usual other outlets could be

• Libraries
• Train Stations
• Tourist or other information offices
• Those tourist destinations that you are also promoting within the leaflet

Also, in addition to the few travel shops that remain, perhaps a display stand (such as TrentBarton do in Belper) in unmanned offices... Quite a number of these offices are still used by the firms as welfare facilities anyhow so they're paying for them.

As I said in the Stagecoach heritage fleet discussion, it is easy to work out the cost of something but not the value (as the old line goes). I don't know about the value of a 1956 Leyland Titan at a bus rally in terms of promotion, but having some printed media to coexist with your digital outlets seems to be a reasonable investment.

You need a timetable. A list of departures at a stop is no good. you need to know when they come back, when the last one is and whether there is some wierd variation that means the bus will stop in the next street for the odd journey and has a different number.

 

[Typhoon]

First in Somerset still produce paper timetables and they are still very popular, in fact at our depot they have all been given out!

Helps that around these parts there are many stops that aren't posted by a flag or even have a timetable case attached so it's a good tool to quickly reference when a bus is due. Plus many places out here you'd be lucky to even get a signal

Absolutely, I have recently waited at rural stops where there has been no signal, not even a flag, never mind a case. It doesn't matter so much where the bus is regular, but in the countryside, with buses every couple of hours, it does. There can be nothing more frustrating than finding that you narrowly missed a bus but could have crossed the road to catch one in the other direction, which would have taken you to somewhere with more regular options. Although I write stuff down (back and front of an envelope), there are limits!

I do prefer a timetable, whether it be online or printed; I understand that at a stop, a departure list is perhaps more appropriate. In touristy areas particularly, the ability to promote and publicise services is really beneficial. This is especially with tourists who are unfamiliar with the area and I noted how many passengers had them on when travelling on First's Coaster services in Dorset and Cornwall in the summer.

It is helpful if there is some indication of how long it takes to get to its destination or major stopping point though.

Touristy areas - agree. My neighbours used to go everywhere by car but have started to consider the bus, particularly when they go on short breaks - recently they were telling me that from where they were staying, no bus stops with cases, they drove to the nearest large town, no tourist information, no obvious timetables so drove everywhere. In particular, small operators should be aiming to get the word out. If visitors see Stagecoach, Arriva or First buses, they are likely to think that they are the sole providers and because the large provider doesn't serve a place of interest, reasonably assume that there is no bus to that place. The sight of a timetable might just encourage visitors to include that place in their itinerary, although they had previously never heard of 'Smith & Sons', the operator. They would also know when to set off back without having to find the operator's website (which can be difficult when there are operators with similar names).

Some operators appear to think that all passengers have the same basic knowledge as the average contributor to this forum. I'm sorry to disappoint them, they don't!

 

[farwest]

The timetable booklet in Cornwall is brilliant and essential for planning trips. It is A4 size and could do with being made a smaller size but apart from that much appreciated by everyone especially in the summer.