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Pantographs on Pendolinos

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bluebottle

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Why would you use both pans on a Pendolino when it is not needed? All it would do would be to add to maintenance costs.

And Eurostars ARE half sets. Hence each full train has two different numbers, one for each half.

Ok, I already know Eurostars are half sets, I didn't know that one half couldn't be powered by the other. Re Pendos, I probably should have said they don't use the rear pan for that reason rather than both. My mistake on that.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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A couple of points to add:-
With two pantographs up, can I take it that the train will have more power and will therefore be able to go faster, subject to it being allowed too, etc, etc
No. Not if its a single unit (such as a Pendolino). Its the same voltage, no matter how may connections are made between the OLE, the train's motor control and the earth. (That's basic electrial theory)
As others have said, it would add to wear, and improve the electrical connection only marginally.

As for the direction of travel and which pantograph is raised, then one will introduce much less wear than the other. Imagine walking or cycling along a road with a broom to sweep the road (yeah, I know its a daft thing to do, but this is reasearch, innit?). Which is easier: putting the broom out in front of you (which gets snagged on every variation on the surface and bumps you) or trailing it behing you (where it just drags over every variation in the surface and at worst, it bumps off contact for a momment)? There's a lot less wear and bounce if the suspension and tension are behind rather than in front. (Thats geometry)!
You have to lok at the angle of the pantographs to see which way they're sprung. Many Overhead Electric locos have 2 pantos - both on the one loco. Not to increase power but to ensure that their geometry suits the direction of contact.
 

O L Leigh

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I'm not convinced by the geometry argument. The way that a pantograph is sprung means that the thrust it exerts on the OLE is vertical. The direction of movement does indeed modify this force to include a horizontal vector, but this vector is the same whichever way the train is travelling.

Your broom analogy is also a bit misleading, as the friction between the carbons on a pan head and the OLE is incredibly low. A closer analogy would be pushing a chair across an ice rink. Whether you push it in front of you or drag it behind you, it really makes very little difference to the way that the chair moves across the rink.

Added to that, BR did a lot of research into pantograph behaviour that went into the design of the Brecknell Willis high-speed pan. If anyone understands how a pan works it is us. If there was any significant difference in pantograph behaviour depending on the direction of travel it would have been allowed for in the design. Otherwise there would be many more British trains with two pans. As it is, it's just the Cl390's.

O L Leigh
 

DaveNewcastle

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Thanks for this response O L L.
Well I agree that the geometry is not simple and neither of us have been complete in our descriptions. My argument is that the lateral forces ARE significant, both friction and wind resistance (imagine trying to hold a stick perpendicularly out of a window at 100+ mph!).
Most early locos did have two pantos, one for each direction of travel, even when constructed as a completely symmetrical rhombus! But I agree that design has evolved to counter the forces in whichever direction they arrive on the structure.
But I'm claiming that there is a trade off elsewhere - the design of a twin-riser panto (half a rhombus) would be more efficient and more effective if the horozontal force only came in one direction, and that the uplift pressure was exerted against that force (and not just upwards). However, the cost of twin pantographs and their control, their load-switching, interlocking and additional control to cover neutral sections (and if they are on separate vehicles then either a H.V. conductor through the length of the train or else two entire power regulator systems, far outweights the benefits.
Actually, there is a phenomenal amount of research still being undertaken into the complexities of pantograph design and use - I don't think the dust has settled yet!
So I guess I'm sticking with my 2 pantos is better geometry argument, and conceeding the 1 panto is economically realistic argument.

BTW. Experiments in the 70's showed that operating at high speeds with 2 pantos on the one vehicle led to additional difficulties with the second/trailing pantograph having to cope with the distrurbance to the OLE caused by the first.
BTW 2. The TGV uses one on high speed lines and both on the slower "classic" lines. If we were to take that useage as our source of wisdom then we'd have to conceed that there's no single correct approach!
 

Bayum

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BTW. Experiments in the 70's showed that operating at high speeds with 2 pantos on the one vehicle led to additional difficulties with the second/trailing pantograph having to cope with the distrurbance to the OLE caused by the first.

Which is why the White Rose couldn't run at more than 110mph on the ECML
 

O L Leigh

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Most of the early AC loco designs had two pans because they were required to operate on two different voltages; 25kV and 6.25kV. For locos at least, the easiest way of separating them out was to have two pans, one for each voltage.

While I will concede that the Eurostar pan is of a more robust design, there appears to be no problem with them whichever way around they are running. If there were any benefits to be conveyed by pantograph geometry, it really should be on very high speed lines such as those Eurostar operates over. However, this would appear not to be the case, as the Eurostar operates safely at speeds of 186mph with one pan leading and the other trailing with regard to the direction of travel. Likewise the rigours of wind resistance will exert a horizontal vector on a pan whichever way around it is facing.

I also believe you might be overplaying the friction between pan head and contact wire. If friction was a significant enough force to affect pantograph dynamics we would be wearing through contact wires at a far higher rate than at present. I will confess that I don't know at what interval contact wires are replaced, but I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of the WA route miles still uses the same contact wire as was in place when I first joined the railways more than 5 years ago. Considering that the service frequency is between 2 and more than 10 trains per hour (some of which will be 8 car units, meaning two pans per train) you have to understand that the friction has to be low in order that the contact wires have lasted so long. This is part of the reason why I made the analogy of pushing a chair across an ice rink.

O L Leigh
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which is why the White Rose couldn't run at more than 110mph on the ECML

I think that had more to do with current draw, as the Eurostars would pull much more power from the OLE than domestic stock.

One of my traction instructors was a GN driver and recounted a tale of taking a brake handling train out from Peterborough with some trainees. He was convinced the Cl317 they were driving was faulty because it was dog slow. He'd even agreed a fault-finding stop at Huntingdon with the signaller. However, before they'd got that far a GNER Eurostar went tanking past on the fast lines and through the neutral section. Once this train was into the next electrification section all the power returned and the Cl317 performed as normal.

O L Leigh
 

Bayum

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Most of the early AC loco designs had two pans because they were required to operate on two different voltages; 25kV and 6.25kV. For locos at least, the easiest way of separating them out was to have two pans, one for each voltage.

While I will concede that the Eurostar pan is of a more robust design, there appears to be no problem with them whichever way around they are running. If there were any benefits to be conveyed by pantograph geometry, it really should be on very high speed lines such as those Eurostar operates over. However, this would appear not to be the case, as the Eurostar operates safely at speeds of 186mph with one pan leading and the other trailing with regard to the direction of travel. Likewise the rigours of wind resistance will exert a horizontal vector on a pan whichever way around it is facing.

I also believe you might be overplaying the friction between pan head and contact wire. If friction was a significant enough force to affect pantograph dynamics we would be wearing through contact wires at a far higher rate than at present. I will confess that I don't know at what interval contact wires are replaced, but I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of the WA route miles still uses the same contact wire as was in place when I first joined the railways more than 5 years ago. Considering that the service frequency is between 2 and more than 10 trains per hour (some of which will be 8 car units, meaning two pans per train) you have to understand that the friction has to be low in order that the contact wires have lasted so long. This is part of the reason why I made the analogy of pushing a chair across an ice rink.

O L Leigh
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think that had more to do with current draw, as the Eurostars would pull much more power from the OLE than domestic stock.

One of my traction instructors was a GN driver and recounted a tale of taking a brake handling train out from Peterborough with some trainees. He was convinced the Cl317 they were driving was faulty because it was dog slow. He'd even agreed a fault-finding stop at Huntingdon with the signaller. However, before they'd got that far a GNER Eurostar went tanking past on the fast lines and through the neutral section. Once this train was into the next electrification section all the power returned and the Cl317 performed as normal.

O L Leigh


Oh, ok... I thought it was something to do with both honestly... I'm sure thats the reason cited when i've read about it before....
 

j0hn0

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I thought Pendolinos were half sets too. I remember hearing on this forum once that they are made up of 2 half sets each with their own pan. One rake being one coach longer than the other

Feel free to shoot me down, but it's just what I heard
 

driver9000

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I thought Pendolinos were half sets too. I remember hearing on this forum once that they are made up of 2 half sets each with their own pan. One rake being one coach longer than the other

Feel free to shoot me down, but it's just what I heard

The 390 is a single set EMU as others have already stated, they are numbered as one set whereas the 373s carry different numbers for each half.
 

bluebottle

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BTW. Experiments in the 70's showed that operating at high speeds with 2 pantos on the one vehicle led to additional difficulties with the second/trailing pantograph having to cope with the distrurbance to the OLE caused by the first.

I think that's the main point I was trying to make about why Pendolini only use the leading pan.
 

DaveNewcastle

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(You deserve a response for your excellent grammar - I was offered mozarella and sundried tomato Panini in the deli this morning and hadn't the heart to explain that I only wanted a panio)
I think that's the main point I was trying to make about why Pendolini only use the leading pan.

You've picked up quite rightly on a very complex factor to evaluate. In early APT trials, they fudged several factors such as the weight and gauge of the conductor and pressure of the pantograph to simulate the intended high speed operation - and in the recent French APT trials even the measuring equipment available today struggled to quantify the problems - which, with just one pan, is similar a mix of static oscillations and a "moving standing wave" (which is hard to grasp in itself). Its obvious that (for a given spacing of anchorages) that any OLE will hit its resonance at some speed or other (like an instrument string). But the problem is not just the pan has to rise to maintain contact when the cable is high and fall when its low, but the weird forces required during the transitions (ie as the cable is falling then the pantograph has a higher lateral force from the falling cable and as it is, relatively, rising, then extra pressure is required to maintain contact despite the rising cable providing a forward pressure).
It only becomes really interesting at high speed when these movements are close to the four-fold wavelength (or other multiple at other speeds or other train lengths) of a train with two pantographs, when there will always be one frequency which produces a violent resonant oscillation.
(Forgive me for jumping topic for a sec - you recall that old film of the San Fransisco suspension bridge oscillating and collapsing? Or the wine glass shattering at a certain pitch?)

You can see extraordinarily violent cable movement when you combine the 3 factors:
the static oscillation of cable over a certain length of track with fixed-interval support;
the moving standing wave caused by the two pans at a fixed spacing between them (moving with the train);
and the moving wave-front caused by the simple pressure of the train's impact (combined air and pantograph pressures) on the OLE and its suspension).
To develop one of O L L's points about wear, the wear from steady passing friction may not be great, but the erosion from arcing/flashing when the cable is moving can lead to spiralling wear at certain points - and these would be on high speed lines where the above 3 factors combine with a built rise and fall of catenery such as level crossings and over-bridges. Once pitting of the conductor begins at these points then it reduces the evenness of contact and jerks the position of the conductor which are both hysteric - ie they accellerate their own causes.
There's a lot of technical papers published on the subject for those interested and these are largely high speed issues (which the Pendo was designed for).
Me? I prefer the French approach (above) of applying two solutions to each train so you've got both options covered! Never mind the technolgy - lets just make it work mon ami
(now, time for supper, will I have another panino or just a sarnie?)
 
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thelem

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I also believe you might be overplaying the friction between pan head and contact wire. If friction was a significant enough force to affect pantograph dynamics we would be wearing through contact wires at a far higher rate than at present.

That depends on the relative hardness of the two material in contact. Other people have mentioned that the pans are tipped with carbon, presumably in a form that is much softer than the OHLE. If that's correct, then a lot of friction would mean that the pans would need regular maintainance (not too tricky), but the OHLE equipment would not.
 

LondonLarry

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I think the reason for not using both pans on a Pendolino is that the turbulence causes the rear one to occasionally lose contact. I can't be certain on that though. The reason Eurostars can use both pans is that they are long enough and aerodynamic enough that the turbulence doesn't affect the rear pan so badly. It may also be true that they are independently wired half sets but I'm not sure that's right bearing in mind the need for redundant systems in the Channel Tunnel. I'd have thought a Eurostar could operate as normal on one pan. I'm prepared to be correctd though if that's not the case.

That's the same reason I heard too.

With the speed a Pendo usually runs at, only the front pantograph is up. If the rear end is up, the turbulence from the front of the train would cause oscillation in the OHLE and the rear pantograph would loose contact with the OHLE. The pantograph itself causes oscillations in the OHLE also.

On Eurostar, the train is sufficently long enough that the effect of oscillation in the fron pantograph has dampened sufficently for a rear pantograph to be used also.

Slower speed units like 350s, 321s etc will have the pantograph up on every unit as there is a reduced level of turbulence.
 

captainbigun

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A pendo doesn't need both pans to be up, there's a 25kV bus along the train.

Two pans can causing a standing wave hence the speed limits around pairs for AC locos. The Eurostar was an exception mainly by design.
 

ukrob

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That's the same reason I heard too.

With the speed a Pendo usually runs at, only the front pantograph is up. If the rear end is up, the turbulence from the front of the train would cause oscillation in the OHLE and the rear pantograph would loose contact with the OHLE. The pantograph itself causes oscillations in the OHLE also.

On Eurostar, the train is sufficently long enough that the effect of oscillation in the fron pantograph has dampened sufficently for a rear pantograph to be used also.

Slower speed units like 350s, 321s etc will have the pantograph up on every unit as there is a reduced level of turbulence.

Once again, it doesn't NEED both pans up, it was designed so that it didn't. It is one single unit, not multiple units coupled together each with its own pan.
 

starrymarkb

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The 390 is a single set EMU as others have already stated, they are numbered as one set whereas the 373s carry different numbers for each half.

Mechanically they are two independant 4 coach halves (with the extra trailer in the middle) - basicly everything is duplicated to add redunancy
 

jopsuk

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Whilst I've heard the "standing wave" arguement, and French TGV do operate with just the one pan raised (the record breaking ones have tended to have the other pan well faired over!) on the LGV, from what I can tell Shinkansen of all sorts run with two pans raised (and they ONLY have their own lines) and TGV, ICE and Shinkansen etc often operate in multiple (resulting in four pans up on the bullet trains).
 

Class92Man

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From what i've heard, the 140mph stretch between peterborough and Stoke tunnel is only for when they were testing the class 91 to full Capabilaties.
 

Pumbaa

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I thought Pendolinos were half sets too. I remember hearing on this forum once that they are made up of 2 half sets each with their own pan. One rake being one coach longer than the other

Feel free to shoot me down, but it's just what I heard

Yes they are, mechanically. They are run as one complete unit however, and one half cannot be isolated per say.

only the rear pantograph is raised when the train is moving

You talk such bollocks sometimes.

---

For those interested to know, when the Pendo reaches terminus station, the Pan is dropped as Driver switches the desk off. The Pendo sits with both Pans down until the train is prepared for the return journey, which for the Glasgow turnovers is around 12mins, and for Mancs can be up to 15mins.
 
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thewolf

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For those interested to know, when the Pendo reaches terminus station, the Pan is dropped as Driver switches the desk off. The Pendo sits with both Pans down until the train is p****** for the return journey, which for the Glasgow turnovers is around 12mins, and for Mancs can be up to 15mins.

I thought I'd watch the process (after reading this lot on here) at New Street the other day whilst waiting for my train.

Pendolino pulled in and as soon as it had stopped. The front panto went down, and the back one went straight up more or less instantaneously.

But yesterday afternoon while I was waiting, a Pendolino came in with its rear pantograph raised... Would that have been as a result of a fault perhaps?
 

ukrob

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For those interested to know, when the Pendo reaches terminus station, the Pan is dropped as Driver switches the desk off. The Pendo sits with both Pans down until the train is p****** for the return journey, which for the Glasgow turnovers is around 12mins, and for Mancs can be up to 15mins.

Not the case in Liverpool. As soon as it comes to a halt the front pan goes down and the rear up for the return journey. They have over a 30 minute layover in Liverpool though.
 

Pumbaa

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Not the case in Liverpool. As soon as it comes to a halt the front pan goes down and the rear up for the return journey. They have over a 30 minute layover in Liverpool though.

That's short though - only the Brum trains have a quicker turnover. The Glasgow is officially 40 mins, but the 10mins recovery time added at the end means it can be up to 50mins. Likewise for the arrival at Manc via Crewe, it has just over 40mins sitting in Piccadilly.

I wasn't familiar with the changeover time at Liverpool; I've hardly been since the TT change. Should change though by October!
 

25322

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No, that is not the case for a Pendolino.


the Eurostars would have needed both Pans up to draw enough power for the unit to operate properly. The Eurostar sets are actually two seperate units coupled back to back an ideally you would want each unit to draw its own power. I'm not sure if the power can be transferred between the units anyway.

The Pendo's can run either way with either pan up it doesn't directly effect the use of the train. The reason for running with the rear pan up is that if decides to bring down the knitting it isn't bouncing across the roof of the pendo and damaging all that expensive equipment on the roof on all of the train.
 

ukrob

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the Eurostars would have needed both Pans up to draw enough power for the unit to operate properly. The Eurostar sets are actually two seperate units coupled back to back an ideally you would want each unit to draw its own power. I'm not sure if the power can be transferred between the units anyway.

The Pendo's can run either way with either pan up it doesn't directly effect the use of the train. The reason for running with the rear pan up is that if decides to bring down the knitting it isn't bouncing across the roof of the pendo and damaging all that expensive equipment on the roof on all of the train.

I know. I have already said that in this thread :roll:
 

90019

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the Eurostars would have needed both Pans up to draw enough power for the unit to operate properly. The Eurostar sets are actually two seperate units coupled back to back an ideally you would want each unit to draw its own power. I'm not sure if the power can be transferred between the units anyway.

Yes, we covered that pages back.
Reading the thread before posting helps.
 

bluebottle

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the Eurostars would have needed both Pans up to draw enough power for the unit to operate properly. The Eurostar sets are actually two seperate units coupled back to back an ideally you would want each unit to draw its own power. I'm not sure if the power can be transferred between the units anyway.

The Pendo's can run either way with either pan up it doesn't directly effect the use of the train. The reason for running with the rear pan up is that if decides to bring down the knitting it isn't bouncing across the roof of the pendo and damaging all that expensive equipment on the roof on all of the train.

Didn't we also establish that Pendolini run with the front pan up?
 
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