Pandemics & other threats

[keep truckin]

Watched Extinction: The Facts on the box last night, an excellent programme which outlined the existential threats the loss of biodiversity has on us all. It also touched on pandemics such as the threat of virus transmission from wet markets & the link to the fashion industry over here to risky fur markets.

There are various threads on here discussing the pandemic response, but I feel the more crucial issue is pandemic prevention, as once the horse has bolted we're all in a panic & governments clamber around trying to figure out what to do & sadly of course, people die. Don't forget, scientists did warn of coronaviruses after the SARS outbreak. Surely pandemic response should be given priority now.

The Doomsday Clock from the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists is a globally recognised indicator of how near we are to destruction & it is currently at 100 seconds to midnight (midnight being we're toast). Now this is pretty serious especially when you consider this clock has been in existence since 1947, so it states we're in bigger danger now than during the Cold War period. The Bulletin, which is freely available on the Internet, highlights the dangers of climate change & nuclear war.

I know I risk sounding like a tree hugging hippy, listening to Lennon's give peace a chance. But surely we've been given a massive warning with this current pandemic that we now urgently need to deal with the very real threats that could cause the destruction of organised human life. As, contrary to our over inflated opinion of ourselves, we're just another species scurrying around the planet & I think we sometimes live in a false sense of security.

I just think we live here in a free society & it is incumbent on us to put pressure on our representatives to do more - I really think we have a huge responsibility. Personally, I'd vote for any party that puts people & the environment first, even if its one that I've despised in the past. Cooperation amongst nations is also key.

Any constructive thoughts?

 

[brad465]

The World capitalist system is built on infinite growth (which is impossible on a finite planet) and plays a huge contribution in the destruction of nature in pursuit of huge wealth generation, much of it going to a small super rich group. Aside of everything immoral about the current distribution of wealth, anything there was to gain from an economic perspective through how we were living pre-Covid has just been wiped out by the Covid response tanking the world economy.

The reality is, like it or not, that economic system is going to have to change to something more sustainable. I don't know what the best system will be (it maybe one I've never heard of or doesn't exist in any country yet), but it will change, whether we change it or our destruction of the planet changes it for us (by wiping us out?).

The other issue here is the projection of world population. On its own the size isn't a huge concern, it's more the consumption of resources. But in Western societies fertility rates are dropping and populations here are projected to fall later this century. This report highlights this, and also reveals the problems of the expected inverted age structure of more old than young. As our economic system is built on infinite growth, "peak human" will inevitably crash the system if it hasn't already been changed by then.

 

[keep truckin]

The World capitalist system is built on infinite growth (which is impossible on a finite planet) and plays a huge contribution in the destruction of nature in pursuit of huge wealth generation, much of it going to a small super rich group. Aside of everything immoral about the current distribution of wealth, anything there was to gain from an economic perspective through how we were living pre-Covid has just been wiped out by the Covid response tanking the world economy.

The reality is, like it or not, that economic system is going to have to change to something more sustainable. I don't know what the best system will be (it maybe one I've never heard of or doesn't exist in any country yet), but it will change, whether we change it or our destruction of the planet changes it for us (by wiping us out?).

The other issue here is the projection of world population. On its own the size isn't a huge concern, it's more the consumption of resources. But in Western societies fertility rates are dropping and populations here are projected to fall later this century. This report highlights this, and also reveals the problems of the expected inverted age structure of more old than young. As our economic system is built on infinite growth, "peak human" will inevitably crash the system if it hasn't already been changed by then.

Very good analysis there mate. One way or the other, somethings going to change with the current system. Sewer tabloids don't help much either - with their demonisation of any sort of suggestion of tweaking the current system to a more sustainable one. With meaningless curse words of 'far-left' & 'commy' thrown around like confetti to anyone trying to suggest positive change.

Will read that report on populations. Thanks.

 

[brad465]

Very good analysis there mate. One way or the other, somethings going to change with the current system. Sewer tabloids don't help much either - with their demonisation of any sort of suggestion of tweaking the current system to a more sustainable one. With meaningless curse words of 'far-left' & 'commy' thrown around like confetti to anyone trying to suggest positive change.

Will read that report on populations. Thanks.

Thank you, I suspect you know this but the reason the "Sewer tabloids" don't talk about it is because of vested interests, the necessary change in how we live will hit the money they make big time through the likely increased taxation they'd have to pay.

After Covid-19 is under control I get the feeling some form of minor revolution or mass movement will kick off demanding change for the better. How effective that'll be if it happens is anyone's guess, but while the super rich have the power and influence through traditional methods like media, everyone else has the advantage of numbers - the larger the movement, the harder it'll be to ignore. There is of course a precedent for a pandemic-induced societal upheaval, in the Black Death hastening the decline of feudalism and was one of the causes of the Peasant's revolt in 1381.

 

[Cowley]

The only trouble with revolutions in recent decades is that it tends to be the psychotic maniacs that generally fight their way to the top of the pile and then don’t let go once they’ve got there.
I do agree that we need some big changes, but I’m extremely wary of how that would come about.

 

[keep truckin]

After Covid-19 is under control I get the feeling some form of minor revolution or mass movement will kick off demanding change for the better. How effective that'll be if it happens is anyone's guess, but while the super rich have the power and influence through traditional methods like media, everyone else has the advantage of numbers - the larger the movement, the harder it'll be to ignore.

Exactly, people in free societies need to fight to maintain the hard fought rights they have & to push for a more fairer society. In fact, fight for the very survival of future generations. We're all responsible, apathy will just increase inequality & the threats we face.

And as for the 'wink wink, are you thinking what I'm thinking - it's the foreigners fault' xenophobic reaction to the issues. Well one name sums it up the 'Donald'. The epitome of the 'let's blame the poor of another country for our problems' & 'this pandemic is nothing' approach. Although it's been now exposed that while he was telling his followers it weren't to bad - in private he was saying its extremely deadly to Journalist Bob Woodward. Surprise surprise, another populist telling lies & playing Russian Roulette with peoples lives & setting a rubbish example to his starry eyed followers.

Rant over. Lol.

 

[mmh]

It really doesn't matter because the only people who obsess over this, to use an apt word already used, doomsday theory are the middle classes and the young. Unfortunately they have the ear of the media and politicians and are gradually becoming the media and politicians.

Reading the thread I was waiting for a mention of an unrelated but equally unquestionable opinion, and there it was. "The Donald." An argument that may have been convincing lost in two words. Preaching to the converted is always pointless.

 

[keep truckin]

The only trouble with revolutions in recent decades is that it tends to be the psychotic maniacs that generally fight their way to the top of the pile and then don’t let go once they’ve got there.
I do agree that we need some big changes, but I’m extremely wary of how that would come about.

Completely agree. History has shown that there are dictators that are willing to take advantage of the situation. But, if you listen to say climate scientists, they want change within existing structures. I think what's needed is more honesty & accountability in the media as well as more accountability amongst the leaders.

There have been people wanting to make changes in a democratic way, but they've been sent packing by the right wing gutter press with owners having every financial interest in the status quo. So in other words, not to call someone a racist, traitor & a Marxist just because they wanted to put across some mild Nordic Style social democratic reforms & get the rich to just pay their due taxes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2020 ==

It really doesn't matter because the only people who obsess over this, to use an apt word already used, doomsday theory are the middle classes and the young.

So we shouldn't listen to the Scientists of the Bulletin Of Atomic Scientists?

Reading the thread I was waiting for a mention of an unrelated but equally unquestionable opinion, and there it was. "The Donald." An argument that may have been convincing lost in two words. Preaching to the converted is always pointless.

Its an example of populist 'let's build a wall theory'. Can't anyone critique the hard right solution of a Trump or Bolsenaro and the totally destructive pandemic response by said leaders?

I'm not preaching to the converted, that's why I've posted it here. I really struggle with this view, all some are trying to do is prevent future catastrophes. We've a massive warning currently in our midst.

 

[brad465]

The only trouble with revolutions in recent decades is that it tends to be the psychotic maniacs that generally fight their way to the top of the pile and then don’t let go once they’ve got there.
I do agree that we need some big changes, but I’m extremely wary of how that would come about.

Completely agree. History has shown that there are dictators that are willing to take advantage of the situation. But, if you listen to say climate scientists, they want change within existing structures. I think what's needed is more honesty & accountability in the media as well as more accountability amongst the leaders.

There have been people wanting to make changes in a democratic way, but they've been sent packing by the right wing gutter press with owners having every financial interest in the status quo. So in other words, not to call someone a racist, traitor & a Marxist just because they wanted to put across some mild Nordic Style social democratic reforms & get the rich to just pay their due taxes.

Yes a revolution is very risky, although depending on how a mass movement turns out maybe better. We've already seen some in the form of the BLM movement gaining traction this year, while on the Climate Change issue itself the school strikes every Friday (still ongoing in a more muted form given the circumstances) has taken off. If something like this was bigger, more prolonged while remaining relatively peaceful, that'll be the best change.

There are studies which have highlighted a prolonged but peaceful action with the intention of bringing down a Government (or perhaps bringing about the necessary change) can succeed with no more than 3.5% of the subject country's population getting involved (as in there is no example of this in history where more than that proportion was required).

 

[keep truckin]

Yes a revolution is very risky, although depending on how a mass movement turns out maybe better. We've already seen some in the form of the BLM movement gaining traction this year, while on the Climate Change issue itself the school strikes every Friday (still ongoing in a more muted form given the circumstances) has taken off. If something like this was bigger, more prolonged while remaining relatively peaceful, that'll be the best change.

There are studies which have highlighted a prolonged but peaceful action with the intention of bringing down a Government (or perhaps bringing about the necessary change) can succeed with no more than 3.5% of the subject country's population getting involved (as in there is no example of this in history where more than that proportion was required).

True, peaceful protests are a right & it's how change comes about. I'm glad to see that Sir David Attenborough programme last night & more climate emergency reporting on the news today. Very encouraging. No need for any arguments, everyone should just research the best science themselves regarding the threats of climate change, nuclear war & pandemics.

 

[Bantamzen]

Watched Extinction: The Facts on the box last night, an excellent programme which outlined the existential threats the loss of biodiversity has on us all. It also touched on pandemics such as the threat of virus transmission from wet markets & the link to the fashion industry over here to risky fur markets.

There are various threads on here discussing the pandemic response, but I feel the more crucial issue is pandemic prevention, as once the horse has bolted we're all in a panic & governments clamber around trying to figure out what to do & sadly of course, people die. Don't forget, scientists did warn of coronaviruses after the SARS outbreak. Surely pandemic response should be given priority now.

The Doomsday Clock from the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists is a globally recognised indicator of how near we are to destruction & it is currently at 100 seconds to midnight (midnight being we're toast). Now this is pretty serious especially when you consider this clock has been in existence since 1947, so it states we're in bigger danger now than during the Cold War period. The Bulletin, which is freely available on the Internet, highlights the dangers of climate change & nuclear war.

I know I risk sounding like a tree hugging hippy, listening to Lennon's give peace a chance. But surely we've been given a massive warning with this current pandemic that we now urgently need to deal with the very real threats that could cause the destruction of organised human life. As, contrary to our over inflated opinion of ourselves, we're just another species scurrying around the planet & I think we sometimes live in a false sense of security.

I just think we live here in a free society & it is incumbent on us to put pressure on our representatives to do more - I really think we have a huge responsibility. Personally, I'd vote for any party that puts people & the environment first, even if its one that I've despised in the past. Cooperation amongst nations is also key.

Any constructive thoughts?

So far as pandemics go, ultimately they are inevitable. We should certainly look at where previous ones have crossed into the human species & make whatever mitigations we can, but viruses are a simple fact of life. Close one door to them & they will simply find another. As you rightly say, we have an over-inflated view of ourselves as the top of the food chain, but the viruses might beg to differ. In the end we need to work as one world when they spring up, instead of slamming arbitrary lines in the sand shut in the vain hope that the virus will ignore our bit of the planet.

And talking of which, one expression that really grates on me is "climate emergency". Now I am not saying we don't have a major problem, because we do. But that phrase has been leapt upon by publicity seeking pseudo-environmentalists to try to virtue signal their way to a simple climate solution. But there is no simple solution, because this "climate emergency" has been hundreds, if not thousands of years in the making, and so cannot be solved by punitive measures. In the short term we need to radically rethink how we generate, store and consume of energy. We need to be more efficient in our food production and consumption, stopping all the waste that we generate. We need to rethink how we build our homes & our cities, and most of all we need to start to replace all the carbon fixing plant life that we have slowly eaten into over several thousand years.

Long term however, and this may warrant a thread of it's own, we need to relive pressure on the planet by expanding beyond it.

 

[keep truckin]

In the end we need to work as one world when they spring up, instead of slamming arbitrary lines in the sand shut in the vain hope that the virus will ignore our bit of the planet.

Agreed. This almost invisible enemy respects no borders & global solutions are required.