Palestine

[kylemore]

Exactly, but neither side can. As I said earlier, two packs of wolves fighting over the same territory.

Pack 1 - Descendents of people who have actually lived in the place for 100s if not 1000s of Years

Pack 2 - Descendents of people from Eastern Europe/Western Asia who were forcibly converted to Judaism by their leaders in the middle ages. Scattered all over Europe/Russia in the 19th century they decided they needed a country of their own and thought the place where their religion (but not themselves) had originated was the best place and to hell with the people who where there already!

 

[Butts]

Pack 1 - Descendents of people who have actually lived in the place for 100s if not 1000s of Years

Pack 2 - Descendents of people from Eastern Europe/Western Asia who were forcibly converted to Judaism by their leaders in the middle ages. Scattered all over Europe/Russia in the 19th century they decided they needed a country of their own and thought the place where their religion (but not themselves) had originated was the best place and to hell with the people who where there already!

Don't forget "pack 2" were persecuted for centuries in the various countries they tried to settle in, culminating with "Adolfs sponsored genocide" during WWII. Poles Russians Romanians and Hungarians were extremely anti- semetic as well. Part of The Balfour Declaration was that the existing inhabitants of what became Israel should not be discriminated against - unfortunately that proved to be an empty aspiration.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Pack 2 - Descendants of people from Eastern Europe/Western Asia who were forcibly converted to Judaism by their leaders in the middle ages.

I thought that I knew the area of Eastern Europe / Western Asia and its history in some depth, gained over the time of my many years of interest in such matters since I graduated from Manchester University in 1966.

I am now somewhat at a loss to identify these rather obscure Judaistic hegemonic states to which you refer, even after spending some time researching into this matter since my reading of your post. You state that the indigenous people were forcibly converted to Judaism in this same rather extensive region in the Middle Ages.

Can you therefore give me:-

1)...The period of historical time when this event that you have described actually occurred.
2)...The countries where this forcible conversion to Judaism occurred.
3)...The former beliefs of those people, prior to their forcible conversion.

I can remember that England and Spain both actually conducted campaigns against the Jews in the time period that you describe. There was the matter of the massacre of the Jews in the Clifford Tower in York in 1190.

Jews in Spain were forcibly converted to Christianity, after the defeat of the Muslims in Spain.

 

[kylemore]

I thought that I knew the area of Eastern Europe / Western Asia and its history in some depth, gained over the time of my many years of interest in such matters since I graduated from Manchester University in 1966.

I am now somewhat at a loss to identify these rather obscure Judaistic hegemonic states to which you refer, even after spending some time researching into this matter since my reading of your post. You state that the indigenous people were forcibly converted to Judaism in this same rather extensive region in the Middle Ages.

Can you therefore give me:-

1)...The period of historical time when this event that you have described actually occurred.
2)...The countries where this forcible conversion to Judaism occurred.
3)...The former beliefs of those people, prior to their forcible conversion.

I can remember that England and Spain both actually conducted campaigns against the Jews in the time period that you describe. There was the matter of the massacre of the Jews in the Clifford Tower in York in 1190.

Jews in Spain were forcibly converted to Christianity, after the defeat of the Muslims in Spain.

Very, very briefly;
1. 8/9th centuries approx
2. Roughly where modern day Kazakhstan,Ukraine,Russia,Azerbaijan,Turkey or bits thereof are. Known then as the Khazar Empire.
3. Varied, Pagan,Muslim,Christian.
Arthur Koestler wrote a book about it (The Thirteenth Tribe).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Very, very briefly;
1. 8/9th centuries approx
2. Roughly where modern day Kazakhstan,Ukraine,Russia,Azerbaijan,Turkey or bits thereof are. Known then as the Khazar Empire.
3. Varied, Pagan,Muslim,Christian.
Arthur Koestler wrote a book about it (The Thirteenth Tribe).

I will be brief in my reply to your posting, so I will only give but the briefest of replies to what you state above. I have read a large number of books that were written by Arab historians with respect to this particular region.

I am also well aware of the book by Arthur Koestler and of the points he raises in this and I wondered at the time if this was the basis upon which you raised your original posting. That book gives credence to only one popular version of matters, but there were a number of Arabic historians who would equally dispute what is said in this book. The two words, political expediency, were stated by other sources and the "conversion" is also said to have only been of the Khazaric royalty and aristocracy, who wished to appear neutral in the area between those states in that region who espoused Islam and Christianity. There was no such "mass conversion" of the actual Khazar populace and there were over 100,000 Muslims who were never subjected to the stated "mass conversion". Indeed, had this occurred, retribution would have soon been visited upon the Khazar state. Amongst others who were not subjected to such stated "mass conversion" were Khazars who still followed the Greek Orthodox, Nestorian and Zoroastrian beliefs.

The demise of Khazar power was finally commenced in 965AD by the Rus, under the leadership of Sviatoslav, who attacked and destroyed the two major Khazaric citadels of Tamatarkha and Sarkel, before laying waste to their capital city of Atil in 968AD.

I have read books on the Ashkenazi Jews and their history and of their connection to this region.

 

[kylemore]

I will be brief in my reply to your posting, so I will only give but the briefest of replies to what you state above. I have read a large number of books that were written by Arab historians with respect to this particular region.

I am also well aware of the book by Arthur Koestler and of the points he raises in this and I wondered at the time if this was the basis upon which you raised your original posting. That book gives credence to only one popular version of matters, but there were a number of Arabic historians who would equally dispute what is said in this book. The two words, political expediency, were stated by other sources and the "conversion" is also said to have only been of the Khazaric royalty and aristocracy, who wished to appear neutral in the area between those states in that region who espoused Islam and Christianity. There was no such "mass conversion" of the actual Khazar populace and there were over 100,000 Muslims who were never subjected to the stated "mass conversion". Indeed, had this occurred, retribution would have soon been visited upon the Khazar state. Amongst others who were not subjected to such stated "mass conversion" were Khazars who still followed the Greek Orthodox, Nestorian and Zoroastrian beliefs.

The demise of Khazar power was finally commenced in 965AD by the Rus, under the leadership of Sviatoslav, who attacked and destroyed the two major Khazaric citadels of Tamatarkha and Sarkel, before laying waste to their capital city of Atil in 968AD.

I have read books on the Ashkenazi Jews and their history and of their connection to this region.

I was aware that there were divergent views on this, hat off to your obvious extreme erudition!

 

[jon0844]

Don't forget "pack 2" were persecuted for centuries in the various countries they tried to settle in, culminating with "Adolfs sponsored genocide" during WWII..

That's what makes it even more sad. That a group of people can have suffered so much in history, but seem to now have similar thoughts to wipe out the Palestinians and take their land.

The only good thing is that a lot of people in Israel, and certainly Jews around the world, don't agree with what's going on.

 

[Butts]

That's what makes it even more sad. That a group of people can have suffered so much in history, but seem to now have similar thoughts to wipe out the Palestinians and take their land.

The only good thing is that a lot of people in Israel, and certainly Jews around the world, don't agree with what's going on.

True Palestine is a little local diffilculty compared to them deciding to bomb Iran or other such outlandish scheme which is not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can think of two examples where the Israeli military with the blessing of their government have carried out pre-emptive strikes upon other countries in the region where they have sensed Israel was under the severest level of threat.

On 7th June 1981, under the title of Operation Babylon (or Opera), a flight of the Israeli Airforce containing both F16-A and F15-A aircraft took off from Israeli airfields and carried out a strike upon the Osirak nuclear facility in Iran which was said to be only three weeks away from the ability to produce nuclear products that Israel feared.

Much nearer to the current time, under intelligence gained by Mossad, a rather more secretive Israeli air-raid was carried out upon a Syrian complex in the Bekkaa Valley in Lebanon which was under construction. Within a few weeks of that raid, the area had been mysteriously cleared of all traces of what remained by the Syrian military who were based in that region.

Both of these two attacks were carried out even though the American governments who were in office on both of these two occasions had asked Israel not to proceed with that military action.

 

[LE Greys]

I can think of two examples where the Israeli military with the blessing of their government have carried out pre-emptive strikes upon other countries in the region where they have sensed Israel was under the severest level of threat.

On 7th June 1981, under the title of Operation Babylon (or Opera), a flight of the Israeli Airforce containing both F16-A and F15-A aircraft took off from Israeli airfields and carried out a strike upon the Osirak nuclear facility in Iran which was said to be only three weeks away from the ability to produce nuclear products that Israel feared.

Much nearer to the current time, under intelligence gained by Mossad, a rather more secretive Israeli air-raid was carried out upon a Syrian complex in the Bekkaa Valley in Lebanon which was under construction. Within a few weeks of that raid, the area had been mysteriously cleared of all traces of what remained by the Syrian military who were based in that region.

Both of these two attacks were carried out even though the American governments who were in office on both of these two occasions had asked Israel not to proceed with that military action.

To which you can probably add the Six Days' War when they captured the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the first place. I've never been entirely sure of the situation leading into that, though. From an outside point of view, it looked like expansionism. But then I don't live on a twelve-mile-wide strip of land surrounded by enemies.

However, if they decide to take on Iran, then things will be difficult. For a start, they will have to cross either Syria or Turkey to do so, and I can't really see either state being happy with that (especially not Syria). It's vaguely possible they might stage all the way around Arabia, but highly unlikely. Even if they are successful (and AFAIK the Americans haven't sold them any F-22s yet, so success in a non-stealth aircraft is not guaranteed) Iran will be out for revenge. Then what? They'll have to rely on American support again.

I just pray it doesn't come to that.

 

[ainsworth74]

Even if they are successful (and AFAIK the Americans haven't sold them any F-22s yet, so success in a non-stealth aircraft is not guaranteed) Iran will be out for revenge.

The lack of stealth aircraft isn't the main issue (though it certainly doesn't help matters) but the lack of the proper weaponry to do the job is. My understanding is that the IDF do not have powerful enough bunker busters (and similar) to be sure that they really do totally destroy all of the Iranian nuclear facilities. So there is a chance that an Israeli first strike will severely damage the Iranian nuclear facilities but it will not destroy them. This, clearly, is a very bad situation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The lack of stealth aircraft isn't the main issue (though it certainly doesn't help matters) but the lack of the proper weaponry to do the job is. My understanding is that the IDF do not have powerful enough bunker busters (and similar) to be sure that they really do totally destroy all of the Iranian nuclear facilities. So there is a chance that an Israeli first strike will severely damage the Iranian nuclear facilities but it will not destroy them. This, clearly, is a very bad situation.

How deep into the natural environment of the geological strata is the Iranian nuclear facility being situated. Iran is noted for earthquakes because of its very position on the tectonic plates and it is possible for any man-made facility to be 100 per cent secure in a strong earthquake in such a region ?

The most recent one at Tabriz in August 2012 was said to have been in the region of 6.4 in magnitude on the Richter scale