Paid correct fare, to incorrect station

[Plethora]

Morning all,

I've managed to get into a little dispute with Northern, relating to an alleged overtravel on my commute from Smithy Bridge to Salford Central. I used to travel to Victoria on a Manchester Central Zone flexi ticket, but on a whim on a return trip one evening decided to see if the ticket would work at Salford Central as it was a little closer to the office. The barriers let me through, so I thought no more of it until I was pulled up by RPOs one morning and issued a penalty fare.

Until that point I had assumed that Salford Central, as one of the radial stations to Manchester City centre would be covered by Manchester Central zone, but I was clearly mistaken. The barriers had let me pass, so that seemed to validate the logic.

On renewing my ticket recently (this time to the correct station) I realised the fare was identical in any event.

I would appreciate any input if I have overlooked anything. There is a breach of contract and conditions of travel here, and I accept that the RPOs are entitled to issue a PF. However absent any loss of revenue, this seems like a pretty harsh PF to receive. I have appealed citing genuine mistake and the identical ticket price.

The more I have thought about it, the presence of the RPOs at Salford Central (which is gated) would seem to be intended to catch out people in precisely my position who have made a simple mistake in nominating their destination. This seems fairly predatory if the two stations attract identical fares.

 

[ainsworth74]

However absent any loss of revenue, this seems like a pretty harsh PF to receive. I have appealed citing genuine mistake and the identical ticket price.

I don't disagree (and indeed strongly agree that its harsh in the extreme to penalise someone who has paid exactly the same fare but to the wrong station!) but this is perhaps, apart from the RPIs just telling it isn't valid so don't do it again but as the fare is the same we won't charge a PF this time, the best outcome. Northern could have brought a criminal prosecution for fare evasion instead. And they may very well have been successful in gaining a conviction of a Byelaw offence (no intent to evade fare required, simply that you did not have a valid ticket when asked to present one) as ridiculous as that may seem. (See next post)

 

[island]

And they may very well have been successful in gaining a conviction of a Byelaw offence (no intent to evade fare required, simply that you did not have a valid ticket when asked to present one) as ridiculous as that may seem.

I cannot agree with this. The byelaws require you to have with you a valid ticket when entering the train, and to present a ticket for inspection on demand. There isn't a requirement in the byelaws that the ticket presented for inspection be valid at the time of inspection, only at the time of entering the train.

Someone overtravelling in this way may well commit an offence (such as under the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act for failing to quit the carriage upon arrival at the point to which the fare has been paid), but not a byelaw offence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2022 ==

I would appreciate any input if I have overlooked anything. There is a breach of contract and conditions of travel here, and I accept that the RPOs are entitled to issue a PF. However absent any loss of revenue, this seems like a pretty harsh PF to receive.

I am not sure there is no loss of revenue here. As I understand it, a ticket to Manchester Ctlz results in part of the fare going to Metrolink to pay for the tram validity. A ticket to Salford Central has no validity on the tram, so the railway can keep all the money.

 

[Watershed]

Northern are completely in the wrong here and you are entirely right to appeal.

A ticket to Manchester Central Zones is a ticket to Manchester Stations with Metrolink validity in Zone 1 added on.

A ticket from Smithy Bridge to Manchester Stations is valid to all of the stations in the Manchester Stations group - Victoria, Deansgate, Oxford Road and Piccadilly. Therefore, as a Flexi Season is valid to start late or finish short, and is valid for unlimited journeys during any day it's activated, you were perfectly entitled to finish short or start late at Salford Central - being on a permitted route from Deansgate/Oxford Rd/Picc to Smithy Bridge.

Whether it's predatory for Northern to have RPIs at Salford Central, I'm not really convinced. They have RPIs pretty much permanently at all of the stations in the city centre.

The fact the fare is the same to both Manchester Central Zones and Salford Central, as well as that the barriers (correctly) accepted the ticket, might be a discretionary ground of appeal - but the appeals body isn't obliged to accept such an appeal. What it is obliged to accept (although, given its notorious incompetence, I would be surprised to see it accept) is that the ticket was valid and thus there was no basis for the Penalty Fare to be issued.

Going forward, you certainly shouldn't feel like you have to buy your ticket to Salford Central and thus miss out on the Metrolink validity. Of course, if you never make use of this and never travel to Deansgate/Oxford Rd/Piccadilly then you may decide, for an easier life, to continue buying your Flexi Season to Salford Central. But you don't have to do so.

 

[Merseysider]

Journey planners validate Smithy Bridge to Oxford Road via Salford.

In the absence of anything to the contrary, I would be appealing.

I won a similar case versus Northern about ten years ago (!) where they conceded it was valid to use Manchester tickets to get off at SFD but I no longer have the letters.

 

[yorkie]

Northern are wrong (again).

 

[ainsworth74]

I cannot agree with this. The byelaws require you to have with you a valid ticket when entering the train, and to present a ticket for inspection on demand. There isn't a requirement in the byelaws that the ticket presented for inspection be valid at the time of inspection, only at the time of entering the train.

Someone overtravelling in this way may well commit an offence (such as under the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act for failing to quit the carriage upon arrival at the point to which the fare has been paid), but not a byelaw offence.

Fair enough!

 

[Kilopylae]

Until that point I had assumed that Salford Central, as one of the radial stations to Manchester City centre would be covered by Manchester Central zone, but I was clearly mistaken.

...

made a simple mistake in nominating their destination.

To be clear, it doesn't look like you have made a mistake, as Smithy Bridge to Manchester Oxford Road is valid via Salford Central, and a Flexi Season is valid to finish short (get off at a station before the destination on the ticket). Therefore, you are entitled to alight at Salford Central (finishing short) with a Manchester Central Zone Flexi Season.

In other words, your ticket was valid after all!

 

[Plethora]

Well, looks like I need to rename the thread. Thank you everybody so much for your help, you've made my week a lot brighter. Have a great weekend!

 

[gray1404]

Well, looks like I need to rename the thread. Thank you everybody so much for your help, you've made my week a lot brighter. Have a great weekend!

What are your intentions now? Are you going to appeal?

If so would you like some help writing it.

 

[Starmill]

Someone overtravelling in this way may well commit an offence (such as under the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act for failing to quit the carriage upon arrival at the point to which the fare has been paid), but not a byelaw offence.

Yes if hypothetically there were a case of someone travelling beyond the destination on their ticket. However there's no reasonable case to be made here that there was travel beyond the destination on the ticket, so I don't really see how this applies. Use of such tickets to and from Salford Central is part of the everyday course of business, no different to if the customer travelled from Smithy Bridge to Manchester Oxford Road.