Paddington to Farringdon connection question

[ngood77]

Hello everybody.

I have a ticket with the attached suggested itinerary provided by the retailer (trip.com). It’s an Advance ticket so I am required to travel on the specific Chippenham and Farringdon trains shown.

The suggested service between Paddington and Farringdon does not allow sufficient connection time at Farringdon which, according to brtimes, has an MCT of 8 mins between EL and TL platforms.

I notice that the tube fixed link time between Paddington and Farringdon is 19 minutes at this time of day so is that what makes this a valid itinerary regardless of the individual connection times of the two stations ? I didn’t think the EL was classed as tube for FL purposes.

Where am I going wrong ?

Many thanks.

 

[yorkie]

Our site won't offer that itinerary; it's not a compliant itinerary.

Where am I going wrong ?

By using Trip.com?

They appear to cut corners and their site appears to be generally shoddy; it's surprising they pass accreditation, given numerous issues that have been uncovered over the years.

What's the final destination?

 

[ngood77]

Our site won't offer that itinerary; it's not valid.

By using Trip.com?

Right. So are you saying they should not have sold me the ticket ? What do you recommend ?

 

[yorkie]

Right. So are you saying they should not have sold me the ticket ?

They should not have offered this itinerary.

But they have, so you are entitled to use the ticket!

What do you recommend ?

I'd recommend using the forum's ticketing site

 

[ngood77]

They should not have offered this itinerary.

But they have, so you are entitled to use the ticket!

I'd recommend using the forum's ticketing site

My concern is I don’t have the MTC/FL protection for the Paddington to Farringdon (TL) leg.

What do you make the valid connection time as being ?

I was naively under the impression there is one underlying ticketing system that suggests itineraries. How come one retailer can suggest this and another wouldn’t ? Why is your system better ? Genuine questions. Ta

 

[kacper]

In my non expert opinion and from what I've gathered with a similar journey, I think that anything after you reach Paddington is flexible?

Seeing as the EL trip counts as a cross London tube trip, you don't need to follow that. And Thameslink allow any train on an advance if you connect from another TOC (I believe there's a thread somewhere on here that explains this in more detail)

 

[redreni]

You're following your itinerary issued by an accredited retailer, so you have the same protections as you would if the MCTs and fixed link times had been respected.

And in practice, 29 minutes is ample for that connection in my opinion.

 

[etr221]

OTOH, if your GW train is on time, you stand a good chance of getting an earlier EL train at Paddington. Then be at the back of the EL train, and use the lift up to pfm 3 (not the escalator, which goes to pfm 4...) and you stand a reasonable chance of making your TL train.

 

[ngood77]

In my non expert opinion and from what I've gathered with a similar journey, I think that anything after you reach Paddington is flexible?

Not according to my tickets

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2024 ==

You're following your itinerary issued by an accredited retailer, so you have the same protections as you would if the MCTs and fixed link times had been respected.

And in practice, 29 minutes is ample for that connection in my opinion.

Thanks, that’s helpful. So if I follow the suggested itin between P & F, and it arrives on time at 19.00, I can’t be punished for missing the 19.04 TL ?

 

[Deerfold]

Not according to my tickets

Are you catching another train from London Bridge on this ticket?

 

[Hadders]

It would be helpful to know exactly what the routeing is on your ticket. I suspect it is +AP Slough.

If so then internal industry guidance says that you can take any train between London bridge and Brighton.

• Where a journey involves using a Gatwick Express, Great Northern, Southern or Thameslink as a connection into a different operators service (not a different Gatwick Express, Great Northern, Southern or Thameslink service). For example Advance Tickets routed “AP SLOUGH”, or “AWC & Connections”, the passenger can use any Gatwick Express, Great Northern, Southern or Thameslink service to complete their journey, even though retail systems will force a reservation to be made.

 

[ngood77]

It would be helpful to know exactly what the routeing is on your ticket. I suspect it is +AP Slough.

If so then internal industry guidance says that you can take any train between London bridge and Brighton.

Yeah I just read the TL bit elsewhere, reassuring.

There’s no routing on the ticket.

My onward leg is (again mandatory reservation) 19.24 LB to TON.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There’s no routing on the ticket.

If your actual journey is from Chippenham to Tonbridge, and you have been sold a (Booked Train Only) advance single ticket, then the routing should indeed be 'Route ✠AP SLOUGH' as @Hadders has already mentioned. Presume you've not been sold some weird combination of split tickets by trip.com?

 

[ngood77]

If your actual journey is from Chippenham to Tonbridge, and you have been sold a (Booked Train Only) advance single ticket, then the routing should indeed be 'Route ✠AP SLOUGH' as @Hadders has already mentioned. Presume you've not been sold some weird combination of split tickets by trip.com?

No, nothing on the ticket about routing or Slough.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

No, nothing on the ticket about routing or Slough.

How much did you pay (ignoring any booking fees or similar)? Was there any railcard discount involved?

 

[ngood77]

How much did you pay (ignoring any booking fees or similar)? Was there any railcard discount involved?

£20, AP, no railcard.

 

[Hadders]

I assume you're on the 19:36 from London Bridge to Tonbridge. If so, then the itinerary gives sufficient interchange time between Paddington and London Bridge, which is 55 minutes at that time of day.

FastJP gives the same itinerary, albeit showing it as a London Underground connection. Thameslink can be used as a cross-London connection.

 

[ngood77]

I assume you're on the 19:36 from London Bridge to Tonbridge. If so, then the itinerary gives sufficient interchange time between Paddington and London Bridge, which is 55 minutes at that time of day.

FastJP gives the same itinerary, albeit showing it as a London Underground connection. Thameslink can be used as a cross-London connection.

View attachment 162606

Nope, 19.24. And my ticket says I must travel on the 19.04 from Farringdon to LB.

The 55 mins is calculated as 15 + 30 + 10, correct ?

 

[yorkie]

Nope, 19.24. And my ticket says I must travel on the 19.04 from Farringdon to LB.

You can ignore that; this is because TL trains are mandatory for reservations when using an Advance ticket in the data. But in practice you are on a cross-London transfer, so it's fine.

Also, see post #11 above.

 

[ngood77]

You can ignore that; this is because TL trains are mandatory for reservations when using an Advance ticket in the data. But in practice you are on a cross-London transfer, so it's fine.

Also, see post #11 above.

And what about the SE leg ? Can that be ignored too ?

 

[yorkie]

And what about the SE leg ? Can that be ignored too ?

Not that I'm aware of.

 

[Hadders]

Nope, 19.24. And my ticket says I must travel on the 19.04 from Farringdon to LB.

I cannot see how this itinerary is compliant. When the ELizabeth Line first opened the default interchange time at Farringdon was 3 minutes but it was soon amended to 8 minutes when interchanging between the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink and v.v.

For reasons we have explained above the mandatory reservations on the Thameslink train can be ignored.

The 55 mins is calculated as 15 + 30 + 10, correct ?

Correct. But if you're booked on the 19:24 from London Bridge then that isn't compliant.

 

[ngood77]

I cannot see how this itinerary is compliant. When the ELizabeth Line first opened the default interchange time at Farringdon was 3 minutes but it was soon amended to 8 minutes when interchanging between the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink and v.v.

For reasons we have explained above the mandatory reservations on the Thameslink train can be ignored.


Correct. But if you're booked on the 19:24 from London Bridge then that isn't compliant.

Quite. So should I take it up with trip.com or put faith in the ticketing staff on the day will be understanding (a big risk in my view) ?

 

[Hadders]

By all means take it up with Trip.com but don't expect anyone to understand the issue - they are not renowned for their customer service.

In reality as long as your train is on time into Paddington then you should make the 19:24 with time to spare.

 

[Kite159]

That itinerary in my eyes is a bit bonkers, surely using the Bakerloo direct from Paddington to Charing Cross to board the Tunbridge Wells train at the starting station (more relaxing compared to standing around London Bridge) is more logical than using the Lizzy to Farringdon with a Thameslink to London Bridge (other than wanting a cooler journey).

 

[ngood77]

That itinerary in my eyes is a bit bonkers, surely using the Bakerloo direct from Paddington to Charing Cross to board the Tunbridge Wells train at the starting station (more relaxing compared to standing around London Bridge) is more logical than using the Lizzy to Farringdon with a Thameslink to London Bridge (other than wanting a cooler journey).

I didn’t ask for that itin ! The funny thing is I’m actually going out in Farringdon so am going to have to either take a chance on the night or contactless it across London instead.

Didn’t think the forum would be beaten by this one ! I’ll be wary of trip.com in future, although they are cheaper.

Ciao for now.

 

[alistairlees]

I didn’t ask for that itin ! The funny thing is I’m actually going out in Farringdon so am going to have to either take a chance on the night or contactless it across London instead.

Didn’t think the forum would be beaten by this one ! I’ll be wary of trip.com in future, although they are cheaper.

Ciao for now.

What's your planned date of travel? The GWR arrival time at Paddington varies slightly, and this sometimes changes all the subsequent legs (though it does not excuse the inadequate time to change at Farringdon)

 

[redreni]

The funny thing is I’m actually going out in Farringdon so am going to have to either take a chance on the night or contactless it across London instead.

Sorry, when are you going out in Farringdon? After arriving at Paddington but before departing London Bridge 58 minutes later?

Didn’t think the forum would be beaten by this one ! I’ll be wary of trip.com in future, although they are cheaper.


Ciao for now.

Your original question was "where am I going wrong?" which Yorkie answered in post #2.

Your itinerary is non-compliant but issued by an accredited retailer. It is also eminently followable in practice, in my opinion. My suggestion would be to follow it, and if disruption prevents you following it, travel on the next train to Tonbridge. It's a judgement call whether better to approach the guard before they approach you, or simply play it cool, show your tickets if asked and then deal with any objections they may have to your being on the wrong train at that stage (by politely explaining that you missed your connection due to a delay earlier on in your journey).

Realistically the only way you'd miss your train is if your train into Paddington is late or there is disruption on the Elizabeth Line and/or Thameslink core, all of which will be checkable by railway staff. When they check the actual times they'll see the MCTs weren't met and conclude that you should be allowed to travel on the next train to Tonbridge. (If they were to check the booked times rather than the actuals, they'd also see that the MCTs weren't met as you've pointed out, but it shouldn't matter if they notice that or not as you'd be travelling on an itinerary, issued by an accredited retailer, against which your tickets were sold to you).

 

[ngood77]

Sorry, when are you going out in Farringdon? After arriving at Paddington but before departing London Bridge 58 minutes later?

Your original question was "where am I going wrong?" which Yorkie answered in post #2.

Your itinerary is non-compliant but issued by an accredited retailer. It is also eminently followable in practice, in my opinion. My suggestion would be to follow it, and if disruption prevents you following it, travel on the next train to Tonbridge. It's a judgement call whether better to approach the guard before they approach you, or simply play it cool, show your tickets if asked and then deal with any objections they may have to your being on the wrong train at that stage (by politely explaining that you missed your connection due to a delay earlier on in your journey).

Realistically the only way you'd miss your train is if your train into Paddington is late or there is disruption on the Elizabeth Line and/or Thameslink core, all of which will be checkable by railway staff. When they check the actual times they'll see the MCTs weren't met and conclude that you should be allowed to travel on the next train to Tonbridge. (If they were to check the booked times rather than the actuals, they'd also see that the MCTs weren't met as you've pointed out, but it shouldn't matter if they notice that or not as you'd be travelling on an itinerary, issued by an accredited retailer, against which your tickets were sold to you).

Just out of interest is a booked train only a booked train where a seat reservation has been made ? Because although I have mandatory reservation coupons with timed trains there are no seat reservations of course for the TL and SE trains.

 

[Hadders]

If a booked train is mentioned in an itinerary on an Advance ticket then you must travel on it (unless disruption prevents you from doing so). The only exceptions relevent to your journey involve Thameslink as referenced above.