Paddington Station Invites Fare Dodgers

[cjp]

This is the first full week of the new Paddington station getting ready for Crossrail (2015?)

So the the Eastbourne terrace exits are closed as is Eastbourne Terrace itself.

The station approach from Praed Street is now controlled access for those foot or delivery vehicles.

The taxi rank has move to a new level accessed by lifts and escalators from Platform 12.
Access to or from the the Underground is unchanged.

There is now open access to platforms 13 & 14 (Thames Valley lines out to Reading Oxford and Banbury)
There is now open access to Platform 12 (Heathrow Connect and the Greenford shuttle)

I hate it. I have paid and want to know others have paid.
It made me cross enough with the the "rough 1st classers" who's chance of having their ticket inspected was like a 1,000,000:1 but now . . . .

The barriers are open and there are just wide gaps they cannot close or staff.
For example half way up platform 12 is a slanting line of automatic gates - they cannot span the full width as trains use the platform (obviously) - and you are invited by a sign to touch in or out with a lonely person asking those halfway down the platform en-route to or from platforms 13 and 14 to pause veer off course and use the open barriers to validate or end their journey if they have an Oyster card.
If you are in the front two coaches you are beyond this sad line of gates and can just walk straight out to the new taxi rank, to the underground station or just plain out.

At least Heathrow Connect make an effort to check tickets on all their trains. (However with best of will in the rush hours their staff cannot get through the train). In the last four years I have never seen tickets checked on FGW local train.

If FGW could get a grip on controls then perhaps, just perhaps, my ticket would not go up so much year by year.

Anyway good effort by Network Fail who manage the station and FGW.:roll:

Rant over people

If this should perhaps have been in fares just move me over Mr Moderator

 

[SWT_USER]

I agree. FGW clearly aren't bothered about revenue protection on the local lines. I haven't been checked (other than on HC) in years and one of the stations I use most is Drayton Green - very easy for anyone to bunk the fare.

 

[Badger]

I also pay but frankly would rather have the convenience of on board checks, not ticket barriers, which are slow, and difficult to get through with a case. Ticket barriers are by definition a bottleneck, which is not a good thing for the flow of passengers through the station, especially suck a big one.

 

[swt_passenger]

The barriers are open and there are just wide gaps they cannot close or staff.
For example half way up platform 12 is a slanting line of automatic gates - they cannot span the full width as trains use the platform (obviously) - and you are invited by a sign to touch in or out with a lonely person asking those halfway down the platform en-route to or from platforms 13 and 14 to pause veer off course and use the open barriers to validate or end their journey if they have an Oyster card.

It isn't finished yet. There will be a 'fence' down the length of P12 towards the buffer stop end to separate the paid and unpaid areas.

People alighting from the front of a train will have to double back down the platform to use that gateline.

 

[Simon Poole]

This is the first full week of the new Paddington station getting ready for Crossrail (2015?)

So the the Eastbourne terrace exits are closed as is Eastbourne Terrace itself.

The station approach from Praed Street is now controlled access for those foot or delivery vehicles.

The taxi rank has move to a new level accessed by lifts and escalators from Platform 12.
Access to or from the the Underground is unchanged.

There is now open access to platforms 13 & 14 (Thames Valley lines out to Reading Oxford and Banbury)
There is now open access to Platform 12 (Heathrow Connect and the Greenford shuttle)

I hate it. I have paid and want to know others have paid.
It made me cross enough with the the "rough 1st classers" who's chance of having their ticket inspected was like a 1,000,000:1 but now . . . .

The barriers are open and there are just wide gaps they cannot close or staff.
For example half way up platform 12 is a slanting line of automatic gates - they cannot span the full width as trains use the platform (obviously) - and you are invited by a sign to touch in or out with a lonely person asking those halfway down the platform en-route to or from platforms 13 and 14 to pause veer off course and use the open barriers to validate or end their journey if they have an Oyster card.
If you are in the front two coaches you are beyond this sad line of gates and can just walk straight out to the new taxi rank, to the underground station or just plain out.

At least Heathrow Connect make an effort to check tickets on all their trains. (However with best of will in the rush hours their staff cannot get through the train). In the last four years I have never seen tickets checked on FGW local train.

If FGW could get a grip on controls then perhaps, just perhaps, my ticket would not go up so much year by year.

Anyway good effort by Network Fail who manage the station and FGW.:roll:

Rant over people

If this should perhaps have been in fares just move me over Mr Moderator

I remember 2 Journeys i made out of London Paddington last year, one was to Acton Main Line in April (Return) and another to Ealing Broadway (One Way) in November and both journeys had no FGW Staff coming up to check Tickets, when i had A Ticket, they also Platforms at Paddington that don't have any barriers you can walk on, sometimes the gates on the footbridge are open

In fact Birmingham New Street is the same, there's a lift from a few Platforms which goes straight to the Taxi Rank outside the station, by passing the barrier Staff, mind you some of the Barrier staff just stare into space as you walk pass, even some of the Birmingham services like Rugeley TV (afternoon into evening), Snow Hill Lines and the Walsall to Wolverhampton, you can ride from station to station and don't get a ticket checked, some of the services do have like 2 minutes journey times between stops but extra staff could be introduce to trains like on the Rugeley Trent Valley services during morning peak

It's happened to me sometimes, i paid for a ticket and people who got onboard don't pay

 

[Schnellzug]

You're complaining about not having to go through ticket Barriers?!
I wish they'd abolish the ghastly things altogether. Ghastly dehumanised robots. Have People checking tickets on the trains. Much more customer friendly.

 

[deltic1989]

especially suck a big one.

Well that would be one way to pay the fare

 

[WestCoast]

You're complaining about not having to go through ticket Barriers?!
I wish they'd abolish the ghastly things altogether. Ghastly dehumanised robots. Have People checking tickets on the trains. Much more customer friendly.

As much as I like the barrier free stations on the continent, I think a combination of onboard checks by guards/RPIs and on-station checks by manual and auto barriers is the most appropriate way. It's near impossible for one member of staff to check all tickets on rammed trains. I was on a busy Pendo today between Warrington and Oxenholme where there are stops roughly every 10-15 minutes and people were moving around constantly back and forth to the doors/shop/toilet/luggage rack during the ticket check. When the guard has up to 400+ people to check, it must become difficult to keep track of who has been checked, who hasn't and to detect the small minority that are trying to evade paying the full fare.

 

[Schnellzug]

As much as I like the barrier free stations on the continent, I think a combination of onboard checks by guards/RPIs and on-station checks by manual and auto barriers is the most appropriate way. It's near impossible for one member of staff to check all tickets on rammed trains. I was on a busy Pendo today between Warrington and Oxenholme where there are stops roughly every 10-15 minutes and people were moving around constantly back and forth to the doors/shop/toilet/luggage rack during the ticket check. When the guard has up to 400+ people to check, it must become difficult to keep track of who has been checked, who hasn't and to detect the small minority that are trying to evade paying the full fare.

Oh yes, sometimes ticket checks at Stations is the only practical way; but i'd much rather they were done by a Person, it'd be so much easier with luggage, and you could go back inside if (for instance) the Train was late and you could wait in the warm, and so on. They seem symptomatic of the dehumanisation that goes along with closure of travel centres and cutting down on ticket windows and automated announcements and so on.

 

[Flamingo]

This is the first full week of the new Paddington station getting ready for Crossrail (2015?)

So the the Eastbourne terrace exits are closed as is Eastbourne Terrace itself.

The station approach from Praed Street is now controlled access for those foot or delivery vehicles.

The taxi rank has move to a new level accessed by lifts and escalators from Platform 12.
Access to or from the the Underground is unchanged.

There is now open access to platforms 13 & 14 (Thames Valley lines out to Reading Oxford and Banbury)
There is now open access to Platform 12 (Heathrow Connect and the Greenford shuttle)

I hate it. I have paid and want to know others have paid.
It made me cross enough with the the "rough 1st classers" who's chance of having their ticket inspected was like a 1,000,000:1 but now . . . .

The barriers are open and there are just wide gaps they cannot close or staff.
For example half way up platform 12 is a slanting line of automatic gates - they cannot span the full width as trains use the platform (obviously) - and you are invited by a sign to touch in or out with a lonely person asking those halfway down the platform en-route to or from platforms 13 and 14 to pause veer off course and use the open barriers to validate or end their journey if they have an Oyster card.
If you are in the front two coaches you are beyond this sad line of gates and can just walk straight out to the new taxi rank, to the underground station or just plain out.

At least Heathrow Connect make an effort to check tickets on all their trains. (However with best of will in the rush hours their staff cannot get through the train). In the last four years I have never seen tickets checked on FGW local train.

If FGW could get a grip on controls then perhaps, just perhaps, my ticket would not go up so much year by year.

Anyway good effort by Network Fail who manage the station and FGW.:roll:

Rant over people

If this should perhaps have been in fares just move me over Mr Moderator

Send your concerns to http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/Contact-us

There is a new Revenue manager at FGW after quite a while of Revenue being in the doldrums due to a lack of interest by senior management, complaints like this will give him more power to get better resources.

 

[WestCoast]

Oh yes, sometimes ticket checks at Stations is the only practical way; but i'd much rather they were done by a Person, it'd be so much easier with luggage, and you could go back inside if (for instance) the Train was late and you could wait in the warm, and so on. They seem symptomatic of the dehumanisation that goes along with closure of travel centres and cutting down on ticket windows and automated announcements and so on.

Well manual barriers can be quite helpful as they cause no hassles with luggage and they can also check Advance tickets with specific reservations e.t.c. The only problem is the cost and the fact that some of them don't seem to check tickets thoroughly (*mentioning no stations*).

 

[Tomonthetrain]

You're complaining about not having to go through ticket Barriers?!
I wish they'd abolish the ghastly things altogether. Ghastly dehumanised robots. Have People checking tickets on the trains. Much more customer friendly.

Yes they can be a pain but barriers are useful too!

 

[Flamingo]

You're complaining about not having to go through ticket Barriers?!
I wish they'd abolish the ghastly things altogether. Ghastly dehumanised robots. Have People checking tickets on the trains. Much more customer friendly.

In an ideal world

However, how many ticket inspectors would it require on each train to check all tickets between Pad and Reading - around 4 to 6 on a peak train (that's about 30 inspectors leaving pad every hour), the number of staff involved, whilst creating employment, would be HUGE! A crew of four ATE's per HST would increase the payroll bill to an extent that would have a large negative impact on ticket prices if extrapolated across the network.

I've quoted this before on numerous occasions, but to show it again, Grangetown station is the closest non-barriered station to Cardiff Central (about a 5 minute spin, you'd walk it in 10).

Look at the figures for ticket sales here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grangetown_railway_station

The reason ticket sales dropped by over half a MILLION a year was that the introduction of barriers in other South Wales stations meant that simply arriving ticketless at the excess fares window in Cardiff and saying a return from Grangetown was no longer an option, either was buying a ticket TO Grangetown just to get through the barriers. Funnily enough, any tickets to-from Grangetown I do find on board these days are going to Port Talbot, the only unbarriered station on my patch.

Real world, ticket barriers are a useful deterrent to ticketless travel, and the antisocial behavior that goes along with it. There should be more of them, and manned longer, is my (and every other members of on-train staff's) opinion.

 

[cjp]

Send your concerns to http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/Contact-us

There is a new Revenue manager at FGW after quite a while of Revenue being in the doldrums due to a lack of interest by senior management, complaints like this will give him more power to get better resources.

How can ANY business hope to succeed without considering revenue streams.
What you have written beggars belief:-x

Except of course I have seen how FGW just don't seem to care.

They need lessons from Heathrow Connect - polite staff, clean trains, on train ticket checks with sufficient revenue gains to pay for their staff

 

[Flamingo]

How can ANY business hope to succeed without considering revenue streams.
What you have written beggars belief:-x

Except of course I have seen how FGW just don't seem to care.

They need lessons from Heathrow Connect - polite staff, clean trains, on train ticket checks with sufficient revenue gains to pay for their staff

I would beg to differ about the clean trains, I think we do an OK job with the HST's I work (in most cases). We've invested millions in staff training on customer interaction (to a ridiculous extent, if you saw the level of abuse we are expected to take as "normal behavior"), but I would agree as regards revenue, there has been little more than lip service paid to the idea of it.

This is not helped by BTP responding to any reports about ticket-less travel as little more than wasting their time. I've lost count of the number of times I've had BTP say "give them a UFN, we're not taking any action" after the most blatant fare-evasion / refusal to buy a ticket, and the passenger obviously giving a false address in front of police.

 

[sonic2009]

I disagree..

I went for an Assement for an RPI job at Worcester, in the Short Talk, one of the.managers outlined what FGW are doing to clamp down on the DOO trains and give away that impression to Fare.Dodgers of a free train ..

 

[LexyBoy]

FGW seem to be keen to have a "visible presence" but less keen to actually think things through. For example, at Didcot there is now always a manual barrier at the main entrance, usually manned with 3 staff members in the mornings. The gate to platform 1 (which connects to the other platforms by the subway) is never manned, so anyone wanting to dodge the fare can very easily bypass the barrier. Can't say the checks are particularly thorough IME (maybe moreso going into the station), though maybe it's the Gold Card Effect.

Maybe there thought is that this is enough to put off casual evaders who would chance it if they could walk straight onto the train but would buy a ticket if they needed to flash something ticket-sized at a person. Maybe.

If FGW could get a grip on controls then perhaps, just perhaps, my ticket would not go up so much year by year.

If you're talking about a season ticket, then it would have no effect whatsoever. The price will go up by the maximum permitted by the government, no more and no less.

Fare evasion impacts the TOC's profits primarily (and thus indirectly the taxpayer), and TOCs may choose to increase the prices of certain unregulated fares, notably Anytimes, Advances and Day Returns to make up for this.

I went for an Assement for an RPI job at Worcester, in the Short Talk, one of the.managers outlined what FGW are doing to clamp down on the DOO trains and give away that impression to Fare.Dodgers of a free train ..

Such as? (genuine question, not having a go at FGW or anyone. I've not seen a great deal of "discouragement" - though I'm probably not the target audience. I certainly hope they don't take a leaf out of SWT's book and plaster everywhere with posters stating that anyone without a valid ticket will be fined).

I actually encountered a guard on a Reading-Oxford local train a couple of weeks back - I was very surprised. He then proceeded to sell a return ticket to a chap sitting near me who boarded at Tilehurst (in a PF zone). OK so it's a few quid which would otherwise be lost, but doesn't really discourage casual fare evasion. Semi-regular RPI inspections with £20 fines dished out as appropriate to those who made the "honest mistake" of thinking they could pay on board would buying a ticket worthwhile.

 

[Flamingo]

I disagree..

I went for an Assement for an RPI job at Worcester, in the Short Talk, one of the.managers outlined what FGW are doing to clamp down on the DOO trains and give away that impression to Fare.Dodgers of a free train ..

They talk a good game, the same things were being said five years ago...

Such as? (genuine question, not having a go at FGW or anyone. I've not seen a great deal of "discouragement" - though I'm probably not the target audience. I certainly hope they don't take a leaf out of SWT's book and plaster everywhere with posters stating that anyone without a valid ticket will be fined).

I actually encountered a guard on a Reading-Oxford local train a couple of weeks back - I was very surprised. He then proceeded to sell a return ticket to a chap sitting near me who boarded at Tilehurst (in a PF zone). OK so it's a few quid which would otherwise be lost, but doesn't really discourage casual fare evasion. Semi-regular RPI inspections with £20 fines dished out as appropriate to those who made the "honest mistake" of thinking they could pay on board would buying a ticket worthwhile.

Guards can't issue PF's, only RPI's can do that. We are supposed to warn that a PF is liable in that case.

If it was a DOO train, it wasn't a guard, if it was a HST it was. One person can't do a full ticket check on a full HST between Pad and Reading, indeed they can only do a full ticket check on a half-empty train if they don't have to stop and sell any tickets.

If somebody refuses to buy / upgrade their ticket (let alone pay a PF), well, you can imagine how popular I'd be if I blocked the platform at Reading for ten minutes, holding up three or four other services, total delay minutes going into £thousands, for somebody on an off-peak ticket on a peak train - UFN's only work if the passenger will give their (correct) details, which doesn't happen that often. You'd be amazed at the number of people who go to London for the day and don't have wallets, cash, or any bank cards on them (only marginally less that the ones who had their wallet / purse / YP railcard stolen).

An ATE/RPI can get off the train with the passenger to complete the paperwork - to put it into perspective as to how long that can take, a few months ago I had some passengers "missing" YP railcards. They refused to leave at Reading, and refused to give their details to issue UFN's. BTP met the train, but they refused to do anything other than bring them to the unpaid fares window. It took the unpaid fares window 1hr 50 minutes, as they kept giving false addresses. That is not an isolated case, I've taken over 30 minutes to issue an UFN (from the initial arguement over ticket to finally getting an address confirmed).

 

[Eagle]

Oh yes, sometimes ticket checks at Stations is the only practical way; but i'd much rather they were done by a Person...

You've clearly never been to Birmingham New Street; they let anyone through who has an appropriately-sized bit of cardboard.

 

[Jonny]

They talk a good game, the same things were being said five years ago...



Guards can't issue PF's, only RPI's can do that. We are supposed to warn that a PF is liable in that case.

If it was a DOO train, it wasn't a guard, if it was a HST it was. One person can't do a full ticket check on a full HST between Pad and Reading, indeed they can only do a full ticket check on a half-empty train if they don't have to stop and sell any tickets.

If somebody refuses to buy / upgrade their ticket (let alone pay a PF), well, you can imagine how popular I'd be if I blocked the platform at Reading for ten minutes, holding up three or four other services, total delay minutes going into £thousands, for somebody on an off-peak ticket on a peak train - UFN's only work if the passenger will give their (correct) details, which doesn't happen that often. You'd be amazed at the number of people who go to London for the day and don't have wallets, cash, or any bank cards on them (only marginally less that the ones who had their wallet / purse / YP railcard stolen).

An ATE/RPI can get off the train with the passenger to complete the paperwork - to put it into perspective as to how long that can take, a few months ago I had some passengers "missing" YP railcards. They refused to leave at Reading, and refused to give their details to issue UFN's. BTP met the train, but they refused to do anything other than bring them to the unpaid fares window. It took the unpaid fares window 1hr 50 minutes, as they kept giving false addresses. That is not an isolated case, I've taken over 30 minutes to issue an UFN (from the initial arguement over ticket to finally getting an address confirmed).

So, how much of address confirmation depends on the electoral roll? If so there is going to be a problem, as it seems that there are many people slipping off the electoral roll (youtube link) as well as carrying the "risk" of jury service - one reason possibly not to bother

 

[WestCoast]

You've clearly never been to Birmingham New Street; they let anyone through who has an appropriately-sized bit of cardboard.

Have you ever been inspected by Virgin RPIs at Euston? Complete opposite to LMs staff at New Street (who seem to have similar standards to many G4S contract staff on Northern).

 

[Badger]

You've clearly never been to Birmingham New Street; they let anyone through who has an appropriately-sized bit of cardboard.

At New Street I've been stopped with: a pass that expired that day, a pass that was off peak a few minutes before an off-peak train I needed to catch, a 16-18 pass that was still valid (took like half an hour to sort that one out), and several times just pulled back with a valid pass.


Here's a thought: maybe the Heathrow Express should be free, subsidised by the air industry, and use the ungated platforms, leaving spare RPIs who can serve the other trains? If the fare evasion is as prolific as you say, then this should represent a rise in revenue.

 

[LexyBoy]

Guards can't issue PF's, only RPI's can do that. We are supposed to warn that a PF is liable in that case.

If it was a DOO train, it wasn't a guard, if it was a HST it was.

I know guards can't issue Penalty Fares (despite being a "fare" and not a "fine"), but it seems to defeat the object of having a PFZ if most of the time they can't be issued.

I'm not suggesting that guards get loads of extra work, rather that occasional - thorough - checks by RPIs (with PFs issued if appropriate) would help "encourage" passengers to buy before boarding. As you say, RPIs don't have other duties to perform and are thus free to follow troublemakers until parted from their cash.

It was a DOO train by the way, which is why I was a bit surprised to find someone selling tickets. I find that ticket checks are pretty regular between Didcot and Reading on HSTs.

One person can't do a full ticket check on a full HST between Pad and Reading, indeed they can only do a full ticket check on a half-empty train if they don't have to stop and sell any tickets.

Again, if the chances were that you'd get a PF rather than just paying the correct fare, it might reduce the number of chancers.

 

[Wolfie]

Here's a thought: maybe the Heathrow Express should be free, subsidised by the air industry, and use the ungated platforms, leaving spare RPIs who can serve the other trains? If the fare evasion is as prolific as you say, then this should represent a rise in revenue.

HEX DOES use ungated platforms, you can buy tickets on board (for a premium) for pete's sake, and there is ALWAYS a fully ticket check......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and HEX operates its own trains with its own staff. They WOULD NOT act as RPIs for FGW!!!

 

[DarloRich]

You're complaining about not having to go through ticket Barriers?!
I wish they'd abolish the ghastly things altogether. Ghastly dehumanised robots. Have People checking tickets on the trains. Much more customer friendly.

agree 100%

 

[Flamingo]

I know guards can't issue Penalty Fares (despite being a "fare" and not a "fine"), but it seems to defeat the object of having a PFZ if most of the time they can't be issued.

I'm not suggesting that guards get loads of extra work, rather that occasional - thorough - checks by RPIs (with PFs issued if appropriate) would help "encourage" passengers to buy before boarding. As you say, RPIs don't have other duties to perform and are thus free to follow troublemakers until parted from their cash.

It was a DOO train by the way, which is why I was a bit surprised to find someone selling tickets. I find that ticket checks are pretty regular between Didcot and Reading on HSTs.

Again, if the chances were that you'd get a PF rather than just paying the correct fare, it might reduce the number of chancers.

Just being pedantic, if it was DOO then it was a ATE or RPI, not a guard. In which case their not doing a PF is hard to understand unless they just wanted a quiet life that day.

Regards your points about PF's discouraging chancers, you are preaching to the choir saying that to me

 

[cjp]

I would beg to differ about the clean trains, I think we do an OK job with the HST's I work (in most cases).

You are right. I have no problems with the long distance journeys.

My moan was based on the shorter trips coming into platforms 12,13 and 14 at Paddington where if we are lucky the cleaning staff will empty teh bins and pick up some of the discarded newspapers. (is the Metro a newspaper?)

 

[Temple Meads]

. For example, at Didcot there is now always a manual barrier at the main entrance,

How does that work with regards to people visiting the Didcot Railway Centre then?

 

[A60K]

Isn't that a separate subway from outside the station entrance and with no link to the platforms? Long while since I've been there though.

 

[David Goddard]

Access to the Centre is via the Station subway, so anyone arriving by road needs to pass through the ticket hall to get there.

As LexyBoy says "usually manned with 3 staff members in the mornings", and I am guessing this is just weekday mornings, then I doubt this causes any issues for DRC visitors.